Play Loose, Win Big - Expand Your Standards On The Cutoff

  • NL BSS
  • NL BSS
  • $10 - $100
  • Shorthanded
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Description

Our coach presents real life examples from poker tables on how to loosen up your game on the cutoff. Enjoy!

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2016 gameplan become a winner co cutoff lag loose play poker is fun Ranges series Theory Video winning

Comments (28)

newest first
  • msnek

    #2

    3:00 I don't understand. I thought bluffing big vs. a fish is almost always a bad idea. What is so special about this spot that we can try to bluff him on the river ? On this board (as played) I would be afraid he will call me with any Ax, Kx or even Qx. and also he will often raise me with any Tx. You really think it is +EV longterm to do this ? Could u please elaborate more ? Also about preflop .. I understand we want to play against a fish, but I also feel 53o is really at least at the very bottom. I wouldn't open this hand in this spot - how much +EV am I loosing according to you ? I thought we should actually narrow our value OR range when there is a fish on blinds. Thanks !
  • asimos

    #4

    #2 Hey,
    I will start my comment by saying that this hand is an extreme example for sure... NOT MANDATORY play for sure :)

    But if you have watched my videos you would know by now that I like to provoke :)

    Regarding my thoughts:
    1) Firstly, we have to clarify what kind of fish he is, cause, although he doesn't buy in full, he is not vp = 60 type of player either. So he can prolly find folds on the river. (I did have more hh of the guy during play (knowing that he has low WTSD, but that doesn't appear in the re-player cause it is taken from old database)

    2) I don't believe when he checks 2 times he has Ax a lot..

    3) Even with Kx he can find folds some of the times??. The same applies to Qx, Jx, 9x, some lower pp with (or without) a heart (i.e. 8x8h)

    4) My hand has 0 showdown value. So I make the decision from the turn...to bet 2 times.

    recommended exercise: Here he DID fold. What you believe he folds? How much you need him to fold to make this bluff + EV? If my assumptions are wrong, I simply don't have enough fold equity and this is a bad play .

    --> But what I want to show with this hand is that some times the "standard" assumptions are not correct... and people behave different in game. Have an open eye :)

    *Saying that villain is a fish in general doesn't help, cause there is many types of fish, i.e. maniac fish, tight fish, weak tight reg fish etc... When I say fish in this particular example mostly I mean a bad player (my bad to not make this clear in the video).

    ==================================
    The last answers your considerations regarding the preflop open.
    In principle, vs weaker opponents, I don't mind to play vs the blinds in position with a wide range, especially if I have reads and I can exploit them post flop (you have to be good enough to do that with such weak holdings). The only I mind is if they 3bet a lot preflop... and here they don't.

    "How much +EV am I loosing": Difficult to say. Cause your range plays as a whole. In principle, when you open looser the top of your range gains EV, and if you can make profits with garbage in some particular scenarios this is also good :)

    But I don't think that not opening such loose will affect your win rate. This hand is an example, to mainly show that we should adapt to the table... ALL THE TIME... and not considering anything as standard... think think and think. I can see why you don' t like this open... don't do it if you don't, no problem there:) But learn from this example that some times maybe it is possible to do it.. Learn to adapt.
  • msnek

    #5

    Thanks for very good answer !
  • T2323T

    #6

    Thank You!
  • GingerKid

    #9

    Hi. I agree that you can open looser range than standard from CO when BTN is defending less than standard, and blinds dont 3bet aggressive. However, I think that 53o is going to be just too loose. It is not like BTN is defending 5% vs you, also when he calls you can expect to loose money with such a weak hands. Also, you have fish in blinds, which means that you will have very little fold equity preflop, and will play with a weak hand IP. Not the worst case vs fish, but still you have so weak hand. Imo you would need leaks from fish such as overfolding flop turn or river a lot in order to play any hand +ev from CO. So I think that is not enough to look only for 3bet stat, but also for overfolding (and so for all players behind).

    On the flop hand 53o (first hand), you say that in theory your range hits better. well, theory here is not important at all, since 1) you play vs fish and 2) you open raise super loose. You also say that you dont want to cbet 53o because it has such a low equity (ok agree). But imo the main reason why you should not cbet is because the board has 3 broadway cards which means that you can expect very low FE here. (even likely gutshot is hardly going to be +ev cbet on such board).

    Turn, I would still give up, even though on average board vs average fish you would have enough fe, but this board is special, villain will imo not fold often enough. River, similar reason, I don't think that average fish is able to fold top pair here, not sure even about Kx. You said there are different type of fish (or bad players) which is ok, but imo common strategy for most of them is that they don't like folding showdown hands.
  • GingerKid

    #10

    hand 6d3d, by looking at the stats of players behind, I see one agressive reg in BB (not supporting loose range from CO), and you dont have enough stas in SB and BTN (if you have more reads or stats which are not displayed, then imo you should say so).

    when you face a 3bet, you say that if you open loose you should be also looking to call vs 3bet looser and you have a read that the villain cbets flop but gives up on the turn. As I can see, you have 222 hands on villain so there is no way that you could know any villain leaks from that sample. Imo, it doesnt matter how loose you open, you should always defend any +EV hands vs 3bet. So I would fold here 6d3d (even if you overfold vs 3bet from BB you still are able to play those "loose" hands +EV because villians have leaks as you said).

    Even if you would know that villain cbets wide flop and gives up turn, you would have to do some math and see if you can really defend so weak hands vs 3bet with a plan to float flop. In your example you hit very strong draw, and it is super easy to play it, but mostly you are not going to hit the board good and are you going to float flop e.g. on AsTs9d (having bdfd) and similar boards where you dont have strong draw? My point is, you will have mostly trash hand and will have to fold vs flop cbet with so weak hand. If you plan to float any board, then villain would need really serious leaks postflop. Another problem: Imagine that villain 3bets 7-8% vs CO (likely due to 9% avg 3bet), but he uses broadway heavy range, e.g. ATo+, KJo+, TT+. KTs+
    The problem here, is that even though villain cbets wide flop and gives up turn, his range is going to hit so well most of the boards, that he is not going to give up turn as your average stat is telling you (e.g. he could be 3betting polarized range vs BTN e.g. 20% and have much weaker range there and overfold a lot on turn, but vs CO he could be overfolding much less due to having stronger range). Another problem could be that villain overfolds a lot on turn vs fish and players who fold vs flop cbet, but vs you he is not. My point is, looking at stats can be very misleading so I would avoid making some super loose ranges but I would simply extend from CO open raise range by 5-10% and if I think that villain has leaks postflop I would defend vs 3bet few % more. Also that way you lower significantly the chance of villain seeing you with super weak hand, and then making some conclusions about your ranges and adjusting (sure some regs will not notice anything at NL50, but since it is so obvious when you see defending 63s vs 3bet, or open raising 53o from CO, I think that there some regs who would adjust).
  • asimos

    #11

    #9 Hi, regarding this hand I already wrote my thoughts at a previous comment. The only thing I want to add here is that if I open 100% and btn doesn't adapt (automatically he is over folding).

    cbet or not is a big topic, some times even when we have a lot of fe maybe is not the best option. I agree that vs this guy our perceived range is not important and that we don't have enough fold equity which should be mentioned in the analysis.
  • asimos

    #12

    #10
    The stats you see are not the ones I had during game (hh are taken from old database --- I am saying that in a previous comment, prolly should mention in the video).

    If an open is profitable or not depends on your fold vs 3bet stat. Cause people will play differently i.e. if you fold vs 3bet 100% and if you fold vs 3bet 45%. In first case they can 3bet 95s, in the second case probably they are folding.

    The example here aims to show that vs specific opponent we can probably defend lets say any suited vs 3bet. Just to give some food for thought. I agree is an extreme example.

    There are a lot of plans you can have post flop, i.e. float the flop, raise the flop, call the flop to bluff the river etc... Depending on your reads and the opponent. In the video I just mentioned one leak... and when I am marking that leak I am taking into consideration that this is a vs CO 3bet... it's not just a stat note / observation :)

    Definitely I don't defend 63s vs 3bet vs all the players. But if they see me defending such weak is not necessarily bad if I re-adapt before them.
  • GingerKid

    #13

    "The only thing I want to add here is that if I open 100% and btn doesn't adapt (automatically he is over folding)." Even if you know that btn over folds and never adapts, does it still mean that you can open raise any hand +EV? Lets assume BTN folds 100% vs your open raise. In that case, you should use the same range as from BTN open raise. But do you open from the BTN 100% range? Well around 50% is standard range, so 53o is far looser. So it means that surely it is not enough that only BTN overfolds vs your CO open raise in order to open raise that loose. As I said, you need big leaks for all players in order to play that loose, and that all of them play blind (they dont notice that you open raise so weak hands, and dont exploit it by 3betting and calling looser).
  • GingerKid

    #14

    "The stats you see are not the ones I had during game (hh are taken from old database --- I am saying that in a previous comment, prolly should mention in the video)." Ok I saw it, but I thought that it applies for only that hand, not all. Maybe it would be helpful to understand your idea of loose open raising if you could show hands with enough sample on villain and precisely showing the leaks of villain which is making your loose open raise +EV, preferably with the explanation why is it making your hand +EV. Maybe you could make another video, with enough sample on villains, or even with fake villains, fake stats and leaks, as an examples? I think that so far from what I saw in your videos, the information about such leaks is missing (you are generally saying, you need to know your opponents very good and recognize their leaks and then open raise looser, but it is not clear how big leaks it need to be, what kind of leaks we should look for).
    As a easy and extreme example for what I mean, e.g. villain opens SB 3BB we are in BB. We know that villain cbets 50%, but when he checks he folds 100%, meaning that we win in 50% cases with 0% equity hands on flop, meaning that we can call any hand vs him +EV. Now you could do some simple math, and show some graph, how it would be with 60% cbet, 80% fold when checked etc, showing different leaks in order to get a feeling when is a leak big enough in order to call very loose (thats what I mean as explanation why you can open raise looser). Another example, we are in a CO, and BB folds 60% vs cbet, and SB folds 55% vs cbet, BTN is super tight and folds 60% vs cbet.
  • GingerKid

    #15

    "If an open is profitable or not depends on your fold vs 3bet stat. Cause people will play differently i.e. if you fold vs 3bet 100% and if you fold vs 3bet 45%. In first case they can 3bet 95s, in the second case probably they are folding. ". Yes, if you fold a hand 45% vs 3bet is likely more +EV open raise than folding 100% vs 3bet, but it assumes that every your call vs 3bet is +EV. I am not convinced that you can call +EV with so loose hands as 63s, even if your opponent has leak that he gives up on turn a lot.
  • GingerKid

    #16

    "There are a lot of plans you can have post flop, i.e. float the flop, raise the flop, call the flop to bluff the river etc... Depending on your reads and the opponent. In the video I just mentioned one leak... and when I am marking that leak I am taking into consideration that this is a vs CO 3bet... it's not just a stat note / observation :)" Sure, there are many ways to exploit someone. But, I have impression, that when you notice that someone has a leak, that you automatically assume that you can open raise very loose (at least from seeing you playing live, how fast decision you make when open raising loose, not having time to look for leaks).
  • cath0

    #17

    Thanks for a nice video!!!
  • asimos

    #18

    #15 assume you defend only AA preflop vs 3bet. Then your defend vs 3bet is +EV...

    Next step is to take all hands that are +EV defends vs 3bet and defend them right?

    But when you open ultra loose you might need to make maybe some marginal little -EV, or 0 EV decisions in order to defend the range as a whole. Then your total defense vs 3bet may be i.e = -100bb/100, but your total strategy be higher +EV than if you would play tighter (i.e. cause you steal more, cause your value bets are paid more post flop, cause the stronger part of your range gains more EV, cause they cant put you in a hand etc etc...).

    So its not mandatory in theory a call to be +EV in order to make it... YOU CAN MAKE IT even if only to help the whole strategy to be +EV.
    *VS this guy 63s was a +EV call by itself... he gives up silly frequency on the turn in this scenario.
  • asimos

    #19

    #14 Nice suggestion, but have in mind that this video was for gold member. What you ask would be a diamond video (if not more :)).

    The same applies when I play live.. it is for silver coaching. So the content is adjusted accordingly.
  • asimos

    #26

    #13 Vs the right bb I can open any2 from the btn. Sb usually doesn't adapt. The later at (at limits 100nl zoom or lower) can be expanded also for CO.

    Below I post my win rate from CO when I open any2 (last time I post win rate with specific holdings for particular positions, but it is the best way I think to prove you it is profitable):

    Hole card filter:
    http://postimg.org/image/fkad3pdmp/

    Win rate:
    http://postimg.org/image/gcnlgibep/
  • asimos

    #27

    #16 When I play live, as already mentioned, I play loose anyway, even without having stats.

    In any case I feel comfortable to play loose at this limit even without the stats, my win rate when I play live is way beyond the average... which used to be around 8.5 bb/100 at this stake.

    And don't underestimate my hud... I have a lot of stuff which allow me to make correct decisions with a glance (in live I use a simplified version :) )
  • asimos

    #28

    #26 ** 44-55 are by mistake in the image selected... win rate is 2.5bb/100 without those
  • GingerKid

    #29

    "But when you open ultra loose you might need to make maybe some marginal little -EV, or 0 EV decisions in order to defend the range as a whole. ". No, you should never defend -EV hands. If you open raise loose, you do it because villains behind have enough leaks, and it is totally fine to overfold vs 3bet since those loose open raises are still +EV in average (and defending -EV is not going to help increase its EV). Even if you play gto, you never defend -EV hands.
  • GingerKid

    #30

    "But when you open ultra loose you might need to make maybe some marginal little -EV, or 0 EV decisions in order to defend the range as a whole. Then your total defense vs 3bet may be i.e = -100bb/100, but your total strategy be higher +EV than if you would play tighter (i.e. cause you steal more, cause your value bets are paid more post flop, cause the stronger part of your range gains more EV, cause they cant put you in a hand etc etc...). ".

    As I understand, you think that playing loose (even if slightly -EV), is going to increase the ev of value hands? Yes it is, but still if you bluff with a solid ratio (or for preflop open raise solid frequency), still you get paid enough with your value hands.
  • GingerKid

    #31

    "So its not mandatory in theory a call to be +EV in order to make it... YOU CAN MAKE IT even if only to help the whole strategy to be +EV. "

    Sure, you can make plenty of mistakes (playing -ev hands or non max ev) and still your strategy might be +EV. But it doesn't mean that you wouldn't increase your winrate by playing less loose (not defending hands that you assume to be slightly -ev or ev = 0).
  • GingerKid

    #32

    "#14 Nice suggestion, but have in mind that this video was for gold member. What you ask would be a diamond video (if not more :))."

    Ok, some math would be too much for gold, but I don't see how can anyone understand your idea who is gold? Imo most of players can just understand that they should play very loose if opponent has leaks, but imo they can't really understand what kind of leaks, and at hat measure those leaks should be in order to play that loose. Imo such extreme loose play could increase EV of a solid players playing on a micro limit (as you who understands what he is doing and not just copy-pasting idea), but imo it is very likely burning money for a average micro player.
  • GingerKid

    #33

    "When I play live, as already mentioned, I play loose anyway, even without having stats. " Me too :) Especially vs regs who don't have much sample on me, and I fire a lot of overbets postflop as bluff or as value if get bluff catched sometimes. Still, at some point regs adapt, so I go away to some other player pool :) but as long as it works, it is very +ev.
  • GingerKid

    #34

    ok, now you have more sample than last time you posted. still it is slightly +ev, could be still variance on 10k sample. By the way, I am not saying that you should not play looser from CO at, but just saying that likely your extreme loose hands are -ev. If your bottom range is slightly +ev, probably top of that range you provided like Qx, Jx are above your average winrate, and the bottom of your provided range is likely -ev (but likely also slightly -ev). what if you would fold like 50% of that provided range, don't you think that your average ev could get even higher?
  • asimos

    #35

    #30, #31
    Ok, I ll try to re-write what I mean (not sure I can explain it good enough in a comment chat)...
    Assume for simplicity you open only 1 combo, i.e. 74s...

    Assume also that your total EV on average when you open is a function of 1) your preflop fold equity 2) of the 3bet % you face 3) you posflop equity when you get called.

    scenario A) you fold vs 3bet 100%... Then the Villain on your left adapts by 3betting you 100% ... so now you have 0 fold equity...and your total EV of opening is negative...

    scenario B) Now assume that in order to have your fold vs 3bet stat around 45% you loose some of your total EV when you defend vs 3bet w 75s...but bc you have fold equity preflop when you open (villain doesn't 3bet 100% but lets say 10%)... or / and posflop equity when they call... your total EV of opening is positive...

    So you sacrifice one of the components of your total EV... in order to boost the EV of other components... such as the total to be positive...

    On the other hand, if you would fold vs 3bet 100% when you open cause calling has negative EV, then you cannot open at all... cause opening becomes negative EV in the first scenario...

    Scenario described as extremes in order the concept to be clear..
  • asimos

    #36

    #34 But you see when I open the worse cards from the dec they are +EV opens on average (sample small... but still)... can't understand what exactly you mean. Why you assume I have -ev opens as total (not vs 3bet, or sth in particular... but as total on average after I open)?
  • asimos

    #37

    #29 part of Villains leaks is to keep their incapable to 3bet you like crazy (and I am speaking about the regs who do not know how to adapt correctly)
  • asimos

    #38

    #32 I want to provide a very basic guide / ideas / open people's mind... teaching how to play loose and winning in a very deep level with all the details is a skill which cannot be obtained such easily.