+++Q&A with Jared Tendler!!+++

hey i didn't follow this thread for 1st so im not sure if u gave ur thought on this subject , but anyway here it goes:

I’m having this problem, and it’s just weird and it’s limiting my profit, let’s say I’m a winning player, after winning like 6-7 buy in, I feel stuck, I become too happy, I start to think I can’t win more, and greed is bad and I should just stop for the day, but I do want to play, but I can’t control these feelings…it’s like when someone lose 6-7 buy in, it’s hard to play their A game, but for me, it’s the opposite, if I win too much in 1 day, its really hard to play my A game, even that I know, I wasn’t running hot, and all odds and probability are still same…what I’m suppose to do to shake this off ?

thx for your time : )

Originally posted by outspan
Jared,

thank you for a great book.

When you talk about deep breathing in your book, do you refer to simply taking deep breaths, or to a more specific practice such as breathing through your stomach and not your chest? Are there specific breathing exercises that you can recommend which would work for both increasing intensity and calming emotions, toward achieving peak performance?

When trying the "mental hand history," I got stuck at step 3. I sometimes tilt when a fish sucks out on me on a big all-in pot. The reason I listed is this: "a suck-out now doesn't necessarily mean I'll compensate for it later, because cards have no memory" -- this is how I always rationalize my anger in-game, after I lose the pot. Now I don't know what to say for step 3, because I don't believe this logic to be flawed. Perhaps my mistake is not going deep enough and neglecting variance as an intrinsic part of the game, but on a logical level, I still believe this rationalization for my anger to be essentially correct. How do I fix this?

Hi! Thanks, great to hear the book has helped.

Doing diaphragmatic breathing, through your stomach, is more effective than in your chest because you take in more oxygen and release more carbon-dioxide. In the book, I was talking about it generally because I didn't want people to get too hung up with the idea of breathing and think I was talking about something hokey. As far as decreasing emotion DB is most effective and as far as increasing intensity, I've heard/found that doing DB in through your nose, out through your nose - with the intent of firing your up emotionally can help.

Step 3 of the Mental Hand History can be a tough one. I think you're right, you're not going deep enough. The logic you're saying I don't think is flawed, so what that tells me is, that Step 2: Why does it make sense that you'd react that way, hasn't been defined clearly or deep enough.

Post step 1 with more details around what you say, think, or feel when a fish sucks out on you in a big pot. Then post your step 2 and I'll see if I can add some new insight, or brainstorm with you what may be happening at a deeper level.

Originally posted by Th0m4sBC
How do you define if someone does tilting a lot or not in general?
I am asking this because I tend to tilt of in Turbo HU SNGs (you are playing for 6 minutes, set all up and then.....A9 vs A6 .....board 66XXX). I know that the decision was the correct one (not only because I ended up being a favour, but because it is the right play for this situation) but still it tilts me. It feels like: all this work, for what? a suck out!

On the other hand 2 hours later i played NL50 SH CG and get my Kings in preflop against AA and lose and I am so: whatsoever, set up, happens rebuy and go on. No tilt, nothing.

Is this strange or is it just the situational tilt combined with the 'WTA structure' of HU SNGs?

It's very common for tilt to happen differently in the way you're describing. The key to breaking down the difference, and ultimately the cause of tilt, is to figure out why in Turbo's your getting tilted by variance, and not elsewhere. What's different?

I play cash games and I am - 27bb/100 after 60.000 hands. I study poker hard and I am not drunk when I play. This is the worst rate I have ever met. Probably I have a mental desease that I found out with poker. Any help? I have bought and read your book, it was really helpfull but up to now nothing have changed.
My problem is TILT. It is not that I don't know the fundamentals - I may be I can say that I know them above the average. I have read all the basic books for theory, as well as for poker psychology. i play my A-game for 60%-70% of my time, but the rest 30%-40% is terrible. Although I know that what I do is wrong, something pushes me to do it. "I don't believe him. He tries to bluff me" or "Raise-second barell- third barell with air vs a super loose opponent" and so on, are some misleading thoughts that drive me to mistakes. I understand that some of these happens to mosts of the players at some time. But I have never met something similar. And that's why I wonder if it is something more important that just tilt in poker.
I have also to mention that generally in my life I take decisions persuated by emotions, even I recognise that they are logically incorrect.

Originally posted by deezer79

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Great to hear you have the book - what do you think so far?

To your post - the key thing is that you don't want to numb yourself to the pain, you want to resolve the causes of your pain. Bad Beats are not the real cause of your pain. A bad beat triggers a flaw in your approach to the game. It's that flaw that makes bad beats painful. The reality is that bad beats aren't painful to every poker player - it's painful to those who have a flaw way of looking at them.

Keep in mind, these flaws are mostly unconscious. Logically you may know why a bad beat shouldn't cause problems, but unconsciously, you're mind is trained to think otherwise.

In order to break this pattern, we need to figure out what the flaw is. In order to get there I need to you to answer a few questions:

1) What is it about bad beats that's so painful?
2) Is the pain worse at some times?

If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to take a look at Running Bad, Injustice, and Hate-losing Tilt in the book. Plus, chapter 3: Emotion.

Post some more details and we'll break this problem down.

Thanks so much for the response Jared. I'm loving the book and it's made me adjust my thought and control emotion to a certain extent but it's still a work in progress. Motivation seems to be a major issue for me right now and your book may be a new excuse I'm using not to play; I shouldn't play until I digest it completely. LOL.

Ahh! This is good, I know you were kind of joking here, but as Barry Carter can attest (Pg 104-105) you've just helped me to see an important flaw in your belief about learning: "but it's still a work in progress" & "until I digest it completely." I know I'm being quite nit picky, but you must realize that the word still and completely, highlights a expectations about the process that are flawed: 1) That you expect improvement to happen faster than it is. 2) That you believe it's possible to completely digest the book without putting in work at the table.

The reality is, that you have to play poker in order to train the improvements in your mental game. Of course you want to understand the underlying causes of your problem better, before diving in head first, but if you just work on your mental game without playing, then you create a false expectation of mastery that can lead to further problems.

Work off the table to better understand your mental game problems (Cause, and the solution), and then get on the table well prepared to take them head on. Then, you'll get to learn having gone through that experience what worked, what didn't, more about the cause and the solution, you'll adjust, you'll work more, and then get back in there an repeat the process. This way of doing this is VERY different from the numb/avoidance way of doing it, and the more you understand about the process, the quicker you'll improve.

Originally posted by deezer79
Am learning that it's OK to have an emotional reaction now but as I don't have a total understanding of why it makes me want to book a win, quit at losing one BI etc - I still have to take a break. Plowing my way through the Tilt section and I find that I'm spread all over the place and can't really pigeon hole myself. Injustice Tilt may be the most prominent, Hate Losing is certainly an issue, Entitlement and Revenge.

Injustice: Most easy for me to define. Have a hard time coping when variance and getting it in good often isn't a comfort to me. I think I judge skill and success in terms of money and if the "right" play causes my bankroll to drop, I question a lot about myself and it sometimes shifts towards paranoia. This site's out to get me!

Hate Losing: Poker is only fun for me when I'm winning. This effects motivation and although I know I need to be grinding hard to be successful and achieve my goals, I want to quit when I'm having no fun.

Entitlement: Am certainly no Hellmuth and think of myself as quite humble. Though when people suck out on me I see it as theft. That pot belonged to me. You have no right to river that one outer. It's negative and I know it. Often I find myself writing a sarcastic "well played" or something when someone plays a hand badly (imo) and gets lucky. I always feel bad about doing that after tho.

Revenge: Not a big issue for me but there is a paranoia that might fit. I don't use any kind of HUD or something like Poker Tracker but I know many of the people I play must do. When I'm on a downswing I reflect that onto what people must think of me; if my return on investment or EV is poor I think others know and put that down to me being a bad player. Sometimes I feel people are pushing me at the table because they feel I'm weak. Occasionally I get into wars I shouldn't because of this. Or feel the need to defend my blind when it's probably not the right time to do so.

So far your book has helped me to handle Injustice Tilt better. I now embrace bad players getting lucky cos I want them to keep playing. I made positive notes on them so they can be targeted at a later date (not for revenge).

1) What is it about bad beats that's so painful? That others get rewarded for bad play and I never do. Money is being taken from me; money is how I judge success and skill, so I feel devalued as a player (they don't just take money).
2) Is the pain worse at some times? After reading your book I realised that people sucking out on small pots don't bother me nearly as much. Recent example was someone buying in for only 30BB who limped into a hand, someone raised him and I had KK so I 3-bet. The limper shoves and the raiser backed out. Limper had AQ and won. It hardly registered with me because I didn't lose that much. When someone's bad play or plain luck gets me knocked out of a tourney - that really tilts me.

Yet to finish the book as I'm really trying to soak it in. Think it will have to be read more than once. Have not yet started a journal but I bought a nice leather-bound notebook to use as one.

Really sounds like you're putting a lot of work into this, and I know that if you keep it up, the progress will become more and more apparent. Plus, I can tell that you're getting the concept that understanding is the foundation of control and agree with your decision to quit rather than force yourself to play longer in a spot where you're not sure how to remain in control yet.

It's quite common to have a smattering of different types of tilt, ultimately the goal is to try to pull them together somehow. Given what you've written, I suspect the confidence chapter may be important to you. Especially, with Entitlement Tilt in there.

Hopefully my words here have helped direct you a bit - I'll be interested to hear more about your progress as you go along. Please let me know how you're doing, or if you run into any problems/questions.

Originally posted by aceonetheriver
hey i didn't follow this thread for 1st so im not sure if u gave ur thought on this subject , but anyway here it goes:

I’m having this problem, and it’s just weird and it’s limiting my profit, let’s say I’m a winning player, after winning like 6-7 buy in, I feel stuck, I become too happy, I start to think I can’t win more, and greed is bad and I should just stop for the day, but I do want to play, but I can’t control these feelings…it’s like when someone lose 6-7 buy in, it’s hard to play their A game, but for me, it’s the opposite, if I win too much in 1 day, its really hard to play my A game, even that I know, I wasn’t running hot, and all odds and probability are still same…what I’m suppose to do to shake this off ?

thx for your time : )

Well first thing you need to do is to understand why it's happening. Any solution without knowing the cause is a band-aid or random.

Why do you think you can't win anymore? Why do you think it's greedy to keep playing? Do you have a fear of losing money back? In other words, if you were to lose, would you feel a lot worse - like you knew better and shouldn't have played.

Post your thoughts.

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by aceonetheriver
hey i didn't follow this thread for 1st so im not sure if u gave ur thought on this subject , but anyway here it goes:

I’m having this problem, and it’s just weird and it’s limiting my profit, let’s say I’m a winning player, after winning like 6-7 buy in, I feel stuck, I become too happy, I start to think I can’t win more, and greed is bad and I should just stop for the day, but I do want to play, but I can’t control these feelings…it’s like when someone lose 6-7 buy in, it’s hard to play their A game, but for me, it’s the opposite, if I win too much in 1 day, its really hard to play my A game, even that I know, I wasn’t running hot, and all odds and probability are still same…what I’m suppose to do to shake this off ?

thx for your time : )

Well first thing you need to do is to understand why it's happening. Any solution without knowing the cause is a band-aid or random.

Why do you think you can't win anymore? Why do you think it's greedy to keep playing? Do you have a fear of losing money back? In other words, if you were to lose, would you feel a lot worse - like you knew better and shouldn't have played.

Post your thoughts.

Hey, thank you so much, for your time !

I don’t know exactly, but yes maybe fear of losing, or maybe I think I will run bad, and also I get too happy, and I think peoples have to work 8-5 for a month to make this money, while I make it in week or so...so I say that’s enough...I’m working hard on changing this mindset, I appreciate any advices!

Hi Jared, I was wondering...

Do you have any thoughts on dealing with complacency? I know you talk extensively about procrastination but my gut tells me that these things are diferent enough to represent their own beasts.

I think this is something I do pretty well already, but getting even better seems like a huge area to develop an edge over other players who are eventually out run by their competition.

Also, why doesn't your book have an INDEX??? (TILT!!!)

thanks

Best book you would recommend to maximize our performance regarding:
Business, Poker, Golf, Trading, Partying ( ♦ )

Travis Steffen first choice?

Originally posted by fotakis
I play cash games and I am - 27bb/100 after 60.000 hands. I study poker hard and I am not drunk when I play. This is the worst rate I have ever met. Probably I have a mental desease that I found out with poker. Any help? I have bought and read your book, it was really helpfull but up to now nothing have changed.
My problem is TILT. It is not that I don't know the fundamentals - I may be I can say that I know them above the average. I have read all the basic books for theory, as well as for poker psychology. i play my A-game for 60%-70% of my time, but the rest 30%-40% is terrible. Although I know that what I do is wrong, something pushes me to do it. "I don't believe him. He tries to bluff me" or "Raise-second barell- third barell with air vs a super loose opponent" and so on, are some misleading thoughts that drive me to mistakes. I understand that some of these happens to mosts of the players at some time. But I have never met something similar. And that's why I wonder if it is something more important that just tilt in poker.
I have also to mention that generally in my life I take decisions persuated by emotions, even I recognise that they are logically incorrect.

I doubt that you have a mental disease, but I can understand why it may feel that way. I also wonder, do you think that your A-game is profitable in the game you're playing in?

The reality is, there is always a gap between what you logically know to do - Conscious Competence or Conscious Incompetence - and what you're able to do when emotionally compromised. The important question isn't around why that gap is there, it's to better understand what's pushing you to do what you know is wrong?

It sounds to me that you too often trust your gut, when your poker gut hasn't been trained well enough yet. Your gut in poker isn't some mystical thing, it's your Unconscious Competence reacting to the situation. You've proven by your play when emotionally compromised, that you have very little trained to UC. Which means, that trusting your emotional gut is a major mistake in itself.

So the question I then have, is why are you so easily swayed by how you feel in the moment? Why do you trust your feelings so much?

Originally posted by aceonetheriver

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by aceonetheriver
hey i didn't follow this thread for 1st so im not sure if u gave ur thought on this subject , but anyway here it goes:

I’m having this problem, and it’s just weird and it’s limiting my profit, let’s say I’m a winning player, after winning like 6-7 buy in, I feel stuck, I become too happy, I start to think I can’t win more, and greed is bad and I should just stop for the day, but I do want to play, but I can’t control these feelings…it’s like when someone lose 6-7 buy in, it’s hard to play their A game, but for me, it’s the opposite, if I win too much in 1 day, its really hard to play my A game, even that I know, I wasn’t running hot, and all odds and probability are still same…what I’m suppose to do to shake this off ?

thx for your time : )

Well first thing you need to do is to understand why it's happening. Any solution without knowing the cause is a band-aid or random.

Why do you think you can't win anymore? Why do you think it's greedy to keep playing? Do you have a fear of losing money back? In other words, if you were to lose, would you feel a lot worse - like you knew better and shouldn't have played.

Post your thoughts.

Hey, thank you so much, for your time !

I don’t know exactly, but yes maybe fear of losing, or maybe I think I will run bad, and also I get too happy, and I think peoples have to work 8-5 for a month to make this money, while I make it in week or so...so I say that’s enough...I’m working hard on changing this mindset, I appreciate any advices!

Yw!

I think part of the problem is that you think you've earned 6-7 BI's that day. It's likely variance has given you more than you earned. If you're evaluating your game mainly based on results, rather than mainly on how you played, then, it's easy to get caught up fearing losing money back, or fearing you'll run bad. You'll be more likely to play at that time because you'll be playing worse.

I think you have to force yourself to stay focused on playing well, after you go up 3-4 BI's. Focus on it more before this problem pops up. Have a couple tactical notes about what you need to focus on so it'll be easier to correct these mistakes and keep you playing well. To make things easier, have some logic that you can repeat to yourself, such as: "Focus on playing well, because that's all I control." Something to further reinforce your focus is on your game, not on factors beyond your control.

What do you think?

Originally posted by datsmahname
Hi Jared, I was wondering...

Do you have any thoughts on dealing with complacency? I know you talk extensively about procrastination but my gut tells me that these things are diferent enough to represent their own beasts.

I think this is something I do pretty well already, but getting even better seems like a huge area to develop an edge over other players who are eventually out run by their competition.

I agree they can be different, but to give you advice, describe what complacency means to you. Plus, how clear are you about your goals in poker?

Originally posted by datsmahname
Also, why doesn't your book have an INDEX??? (TILT!!!)

thanks

I would love to have one too, but they're incredibly time consuming to create and the book was already running behind schedule when it came out.

Originally posted by TwiceT
Best book you would recommend to maximize our performance regarding:
Business, Poker, Golf, Trading, Partying ( ♦ )

Travis Steffen first choice?

I haven't read Steffen's book - and can only recommend Bob Rotella's books for golf performance. These are a handful of other books I've enjoyed, but there isn't one that's devoted towards maximizing performance. Just a lot of interesting ideas presented by different authors that I've enjoyed:

Art of Learning
Drive
Talent Code
Flow

My number one suggestion when looking to maximize performance is to look for the things that take you out of playing your best. If you're always working to eliminate them, then, you're automatically more likely to be playing at a higher level consistently.

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by datsmahname
Hi Jared, I was wondering...Do you have any thoughts on dealing with complacency? I know you talk extensively about procrastination but my gut tells me that these things are different enough to represent their own beasts.

I think this is something I do pretty well already, but getting even better seems like a huge area to develop an edge over other players who are eventually out run by their competition.

I agree they can be different, but to give you advice, describe what complacency means to you. Plus, how clear are you about your goals in poker?

Definitions are tricky and I'm tempted to look only at the behavior and say "Complacency is when you stop improving," regardless of why. There's something kind of tangible about observable behavior. However this definition does not exactly set it aside from Procrastination or even a wide range of other barriers to improvement.

The difference I think is that Complacency is also when you think you've got it figured out. Its almost like a soft delusion where you fail to recognize the need, the areas, or the means to improve. Putting it this way, it almost seems like complacency might be a cause of procrastination. Frankly, I'm not sure.

At this point I think my goals are pretty clear, and almost too specific to list in any context besides their own. Right now its kind of easy to set goals because I have lots of options. I guess I'm just trying to have enough foresight to realize that it won't always be this way. To me, one thing is for sure: If I have a goal and I'm working towards it then its hard to suggest that I'm being complacent.

Its something that I keep thinking about so I decided to a blog post on the topic, or I should say "felt compelled to."

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by fotakis
I play cash games and I am - 27bb/100 after 60.000 hands. I study poker hard and I am not drunk when I play. This is the worst rate I have ever met. Probably I have a mental desease that I found out with poker. Any help? I have bought and read your book, it was really helpfull but up to now nothing have changed.
My problem is TILT. It is not that I don't know the fundamentals - I may be I can say that I know them above the average. I have read all the basic books for theory, as well as for poker psychology. i play my A-game for 60%-70% of my time, but the rest 30%-40% is terrible. Although I know that what I do is wrong, something pushes me to do it. "I don't believe him. He tries to bluff me" or "Raise-second barell- third barell with air vs a super loose opponent" and so on, are some misleading thoughts that drive me to mistakes. I understand that some of these happens to mosts of the players at some time. But I have never met something similar. And that's why I wonder if it is something more important that just tilt in poker.
I have also to mention that generally in my life I take decisions persuated by emotions, even I recognise that they are logically incorrect.

I doubt that you have a mental disease, but I can understand why it may feel that way. I also wonder, do you think that your A-game is profitable in the game you're playing in?

The reality is, there is always a gap between what you logically know to do - Conscious Competence or Conscious Incompetence - and what you're able to do when emotionally compromised. The important question isn't around why that gap is there, it's to better understand what's pushing you to do what you know is wrong?

It sounds to me that you too often trust your gut, when your poker gut hasn't been trained well enough yet. Your gut in poker isn't some mystical thing, it's your Unconscious Competence reacting to the situation. You've proven by your play when emotionally compromised, that you have very little trained to UC. Which means, that trusting your emotional gut is a major mistake in itself.

So the question I then have, is why are you so easily swayed by how you feel in the moment? Why do you trust your feelings so much?

Coach Pawel "Verneer" Nazarewicz asked you about me at your recent show with Tommy Angelo.
I suppose that I feel that my abilities are above my opponent's. I think that my actions are able to cancel maths and possibilities. I think that I have an intellectual superiority that can push my opponents to make mistakes. I mainly feel this with bad opponents. I almost always feel that I am able to win them, even my cards are worse. I have also to mention that my IQ is 122. But my emotions keep me back.
Of course, all this is totally unconsious. And I Know that this logic is fault because " I am not good enough" .
Regarding profitability, I play 25NL cash games and playing my A-game is profitable, even I need to be improved.

Watching your video on Tilt right now and at some point you say that with regards to bad beats "you've probably given as many as you've taken".

My philosophy on this is a little different, I think that good players are taking way more bad beats than they're given just because they're much more frequently getting the money in with the higher equity (that's why they're winning after all), so good players should be happy when they take a bad beat, it means they had the best of it and the opponent just got lucky this time.

Makes sense?

Just wanted to say, really enjoying The Mental Game Radio. I recommend it to other players all the time.

Awesome watermark for anyone coaching in poker right now; either in tactics, strategy, learning methods, in game mechanics or mindset and mental endurance.

How long before we see you on the PokerStrategy Podcast with your co-author?

Keep it right up sir!

Even if I believe that I don't tilt and that I don't base decisions on the fact of money in the pot, or the money I have won or lost to date.. But does this mean that I shouldnt be working on this part of my game anyway?

Due to not knowing I have major tilt issues, I may just have them? I am a very competitive person in all areas, I rush infront of people to make a better cup of tea, or better sandwich.. Just to say i've done it..

In Poker terms, I love beating people, but i also have the mindset to know in the long run i will be beating everyone.. And dont see myself tilt on my own, or with people ive seen.

Im playing relatively low stakes compared to people you have worked with, but would this potentialy become an issue when im fully reliant on the income poker brings?

Originally posted by datsmahname
Just wanted to say, really enjoying The Mental Game Radio. I recommend it to other players all the time.

Awesome watermark for anyone coaching in poker right now; either in tactics, strategy, learning methods, in game mechanics or mindset and mental endurance.

How long before we see you on the PokerStrategy Podcast with your co-author?

Keep it right up sir!

Thanks, sir! ♦

I've recently been diagnosed with severe OCD and have been getting really good treatment.

My question...

As someone who counsels poker players, how prevalent is OCD in poker/gaming?

The reason I ask is because not only has there been a night and day difference in my life since learning about my issue and getting the right treatment, I've noticed that there have been corresponding changes in my poker (for the record, I'm a micro rec player)...

1) Tilt is MUCH more manageable, if it was a 10 before, it is a 2 now.
2) Calling river value bets has disappeared
3) I can play my best a lot longer, and I can quit the game without so much as a second thought
4) In general, the overthink has vanished, and I can play according to a strategy without getting sidetracked
5) I enjoy playing a hell of a lot more

To be honest, for the last few months poker has been the last thing on my mind (my OCD nearly destroyed my marriage), so when I realized that what I mentioned above was occurring, I was quite surprised.

Thoughts?