Tt

Vs aggressive players (esp. tagfish) the play was good. Neither had draws or they would have raised the flop. Versus anyone else I'd question 4-betting an UTG open, and would dislike the board texture.

I consider donking flop in general bad, though. Unless you're doing it to exploit a specific type of opponent. It unbalances your range pretty fast and may run into awkward 3-bets (in a drawy board) or people not paying you off (in a dry one).

Turn bet is perfectly ok on this low wet board where u r getting value from villians who will be calling with their outs & also if u get raised u still have enough outs for a call

Well played

Personally I wouldn't cap preflop but that's a stylistic part of my game

The idea behind it is that since a range for 3-betting a UTG/HJ range has to be hyper-strong the range for 4-betting that range has to be even stronger so you're narrowing your range hideously.

Anyway on to the hand as played..

I think you played this really well post-flop, the value bets are good, as dark said becasue they show no agression it's likely you're up vs weak hands so the value bet is excellent on the turn.

nh

The idea behind it is that since a range for 3-betting a UTG/HJ range has to be hyper-strong the range for 4-betting that range has to be even stronger so you're narrowing your range hideously.

One of the first things I was taught about FL is that generally speaking you don't cap a hand preflop, nor either donk or raise post (unless you're doing it for a specific exploitation line against specific types of opponent), because it unbalances your range. You save the big guns for the turn (by for example c/c flop then donking turn).

I dont cap this hand in this spot very often actually, not prone to cap pf very often at all, so this was kinda irregular. But UTG was a bit to loose and kinda bad and BU aswell so the raises werent necessarily that strong. But now he did have AQ but that is the top of his range there. But ye, capping does narrow my range a bunch, I just felt it was ok in this spot I guess. Might have been just an "in the moment" thing

Originally posted by darkmasterjoey

The idea behind it is that since a range for 3-betting a UTG/HJ range has to be hyper-strong the range for 4-betting that range has to be even stronger so you're narrowing your range hideously.

One of the first things I was taught about FL is that generally speaking you don't cap a hand preflop, nor either donk or raise post (unless you're doing it for a specific exploitation line against specific types of opponent), because it unbalances your range. You save the big guns for the turn (by for example c/c flop then donking turn).

who on earth has taught you that c/c flop donking turn was even an remotely good play ?

Originally posted by Avataren

who on earth has taught you that c/c flop donking turn was even an remotely good play ?

Friend of mine. He's got a more or less steady winrate of about 5BB/100 on mid stakes HU FL (after rake), so I tend to think he knows what he's doing.

It actually makes sense. Donking flop unbalances your range (since you've got a range for c/c and another one for donking), and just gives away the strength of your hand too early. Donking turn on the other hand, confuses the hell out of your opponent (since it's a weird play), and you already have some idea from the flop about his range so you can guess whether the turn hits it.

Originally posted by darkmasterjoey

Originally posted by Avataren

who on earth has taught you that c/c flop donking turn was even an remotely good play ?

Friend of mine. He's got a more or less steady winrate of about 5BB/100 on mid stakes HU FL (after rake), so I tend to think he knows what he's doing.

It actually makes sense. Donking flop unbalances your range (since you've got a range for c/c and another one for donking), and just gives away the strength of your hand too early. Donking turn on the other hand, confuses the hell out of your opponent (since it's a weird play), and you already have some idea from the flop about his range so you can guess whether the turn hits it.

Man, he's just leveling you. How can c/c f b t be better than c/r f b t?

Originally posted by JLeitmotiv

Originally posted by darkmasterjoey

Originally posted by Avataren

who on earth has taught you that c/c flop donking turn was even an remotely good play ?

Friend of mine. He's got a more or less steady winrate of about 5BB/100 on mid stakes HU FL (after rake), so I tend to think he knows what he's doing.

It actually makes sense. Donking flop unbalances your range (since you've got a range for c/c and another one for donking), and just gives away the strength of your hand too early. Donking turn on the other hand, confuses the hell out of your opponent (since it's a weird play), and you already have some idea from the flop about his range so you can guess whether the turn hits it.

Man, he's just leveling you. How can c/c f b t be better than c/r f b t?

that was confusing.

Originally posted by darkmasterjoey

Originally posted by Avataren

who on earth has taught you that c/c flop donking turn was even an remotely good play ?

Friend of mine. He's got a more or less steady winrate of about 5BB/100 on mid stakes HU FL (after rake), so I tend to think he knows what he's doing.

It actually makes sense. Donking flop unbalances your range (since you've got a range for c/c and another one for donking), and just gives away the strength of your hand too early. Donking turn on the other hand, confuses the hell out of your opponent (since it's a weird play), and you already have some idea from the flop about his range so you can guess whether the turn hits it.

who is this friend of yours. Id love to talk to him if he has that winrate I want to learn from him then !

except c/c donking flop is a bad line lol.. the only time where i can see it being good is against certain players. like player dependant. like pissing off a maniac who would be raising everytime you donked etc. But doing it as a default in HU vs every player you meet I don't support .. they can easily adjust to that. and vs any remotely good/not bad player. won't find it annoying they'd just begin to call you everytime. and then make the river hard for you. at least I would.

Man, he's just leveling you. How can c/c f b t be better than c/r f b t?

Bet is bigger. If you 3-bet a flop you're giving away the strength of your hand, so you'll get called with worse hands (since the odds are too good on a small bet to fold anything but garbage), but villain will be a lot warier of you on the turn so getting them to pay off the following streets is difficult.

And he can't be just winding me up b/c I've actually seen him win four figures a session against several opponents using tactics like that. In NL he normally seems to use it as a confusing bluff line against nitty opponents; in FL he uses it continuously (though whether he bets or checks always depends on read).

Originally posted by Avataren

who is this friend of yours. Id love to talk to him if he has that winrate I want to learn from him then !

I'm not aware that he's on any poker forums, but you can find him at Personality Nation (once it's back up). His username is simulatedworld. Don't tell him I sent you.

except c/c donking flop is a bad line lol.. the only time where i can see it being good is against certain players. like player dependant. like pissing off a maniac who would be raising everytime you donked etc. But doing it as a default in HU vs every player you meet I don't support .. they can easily adjust to that. and vs any remotely good/not bad player. won't find it annoying they'd just begin to call you everytime. and then make the river hard for you. at least I would.

I'm actually not entirely sure what his rationale is wrt what you just mentioned, but his style is mostly handreading-dependent lag (plus he's actually more likely to get bored of a good move than stick with a bad one), so I know he has a good reason.

Originally posted by darkmasterjoey

Man, he's just leveling you. How can c/c f b t be better than c/r f b t?

Bet is bigger. If you 3-bet a flop you're giving away the strength of your hand, so you'll get called with worse hands (since the odds are too good on a small bet to fold anything but garbage), but villain will be a lot warier of you on the turn so getting them to pay off the following streets is difficult.

And he can't be just winding me up b/c I've actually seen him win four figures a session against several opponents using tactics like that. In NL he normally seems to use it as a confusing bluff line against nitty opponents; in FL he uses it continuously (though whether he bets or checks always depends on read).

Originally posted by Avataren

who is this friend of yours. Id love to talk to him if he has that winrate I want to learn from him then !

I'm not aware that he's on any poker forums, but you can find him at Personality Nation (once it's back up). His username is simulatedworld. Don't tell him I sent you.

except c/c donking flop is a bad line lol.. the only time where i can see it being good is against certain players. like player dependant. like pissing off a maniac who would be raising everytime you donked etc. But doing it as a default in HU vs every player you meet I don't support .. they can easily adjust to that. and vs any remotely good/not bad player. won't find it annoying they'd just begin to call you everytime. and then make the river hard for you. at least I would.

I'm actually not entirely sure what his rationale is wrt what you just mentioned, but his style is mostly handreading-dependent lag (plus he's actually more likely to get bored of a good move than stick with a bad one), so I know he has a good reason.

I won't haha. I'll try to catch him.

and that makes sense. that its a part of his style. But I am a bit wary of how good that is. But id have to ask him if i can get in touch with him.