Micromillions is a limpers heaven!

Originally posted by BigBenMee
PokerStars - $2+$0.20|10/20 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+2: 494.5 BB
Hero (MP): 254.75 BB
MP+1: 250 BB
CO: 765 BB
BTN: 248.5 BB
SB: 14.25 BB
BB: 227 BB
UTG: 247 BB
UTG+1: 249 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♠ A♠

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, UTG+2 calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, CO calls 5 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 4 BB, UTG calls 4 BB, UTG+2 calls 4 BB

Flop: (25.5 BB, 5 players) J♦ K♦ 3♣
BB checks, UTG bets 4 BB, UTG+2 calls 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, CO calls 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

Turn: (45.5 BB, 5 players) A♣
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets 6 BB, Hero calls 6 BB, fold, BB calls 6 BB, fold

River: (63.5 BB, 3 players) 7♦
BB bets 5 BB, UTG+2 calls 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB

BB shows 3♦ Q♦ (Flush, King High) (Pre 21%, Flop 71%, Turn 27%)
UTG+2 mucks A♦ 5♣ (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 25%, Flop 11%, Turn 8%)
Hero mucks Q♠ A♠ (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 55%, Flop 18%, Turn 64%)
BB wins 78.5 BB

Only reason I call and dont make a raise during the hand, is I see it as so easy for the player betting to have something like KJ or Q10 as people seem to love limping them in these games. Plus I dont think im ever getting the BB of the flush draw, no matter whats I make the odds. The BB i prety much knew he had hit his flush before he even bet out, but for 100chips in this pot can I ever fold?

Hi Bigbenmee,

I believe I would have played the same pre-flop, maybe being so deep, having the position over the limpers and not really happy if someone else gets in I would have made 6/8BB raise, but on the flop I don't really see why you don't raise, even if one of the villans has QT(if is not of diamond) you still are crushing him on the flop, and you wouldn't beat KJ, or any other K, but I believe usually a K would bet much more then 4BB on a drawy flop like this, even donks get aggressive in this situation imo. Such a small donk-bet is often just a way to buy one card for a cheap price, with a draw or sometimes with a J or a 3.
That is a flop that has hit your range, you were the original raiser pre flop, so I wouldn't let him take the action and I would re-raise the flop 22/26BB also bc I want them to pay if they are drawing(if they are going to call not having odds like you said it's their problem bc when they don't hit-70% of the times-you will get the pot), plus with this bet I think you can make them fold a Jx and you probably could get them to re-raise you if they hold a very strong hand (like KJ, JJ, 33, AK, KQ and maybe other Ks, depending on the villans style).

If I played pre flop and flop as I said, if both the opponents called I would just try to keep the pot small therefore flat call the turn and re-evaluate the river, if I'm HU against one villan I would probably re-raise again 60% of the times, maybe 70%.
As you played, on the turn I guess the flat it's fine, the pot is not big and your hand is not so strong to make a re-raise, plus you just get show down value and you still have 3 tens to make the nuts.

The river call it's ok, probably in 2$ MTTs you gonna have the best hand at least 1 every 12 times, but if he bets as he should, so around 40/48BB I would have fold.
If the river is not a diamond and he still bet 5BB I would just call, even when I re-raised flop and turn.
If is not a diamond and he bets strong it would be a tricky situation, I guess you don't have the odds to call here and if you don't have any reads on the villan you need to fold imo bc you didn't invest to much considering you still deep and in the begin of the tournament.
If you did re-raised flop and turn then you could considering a call without a diamond on the river if he bets big bc you have more odds and more chips invested!

When you give a range to them it's fine to put them on QT or KJ but imo you need to add all the other combinations in their limping range: TT-22, ATs-A3s, K9s+, Q9s+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AJo-A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo(then of course in those microstakes you can find players limping JJ+ AK/AQ).

On the flop you beat many of those hands, and even vs 22-TT and Jx you have around 40% equity.

I hope this can help,

If you have any questions or you disagree about something, please let me know!

GL

Marce

Hey BigBenMee and marcepoker17!

I don't really understand why you should raise this flop?
Just call super deep for your ax or gutshot! Thats totally fine imo!
They would never fold to a raise on the flop imo!

Turn/river is standard calldown for these odds... If they bet the river bigger i muck btw!

Greets,
Tiltberger

Originally posted by Tiltberger
Hey BigBenMee and marcepoker17!

I don't really understand why you should raise this flop?

"I believe usually a K would bet much more then 4BB on a drawy flop like this, even donks get aggressive in this situation imo. Such a small donk-bet is often just a way to buy one card for a cheap price, with a draw or sometimes with a J or a 3" (especially on microlimits)

"That is a flop that has hit your range, you were the original raiser pre flop, so I wouldn't let him take the action and I would re-raise the flop 22/26BB also bc I want them to pay if they are drawing(if they are going to call not having odds like you said it's their problem bc when they don't hit-70% of the times-you will get the pot), plus with this bet I think you can make them fold a Jx and you probably could get them to re-raise you if they hold a very strong hand (like KJ, JJ, 33, AK, KQ and maybe other Ks, depending on the villans style)."

Raising here imo gives you also the possibility to get the pot later on turn or river(you have AQ high on the flop, and if you play in check/call or you hit a ten-maybe an Ace could be good too- or you likely gonna loose this pot).

"They would never fold to a raise on the flop imo!"
If they are on a draw or they have a K I agree, but if they have a JX they might fold 50% of the times, and if they have 44-TT I believe you can make them fold 70/80% of the times.

Let me know what you think,

Regards

Marce

Hey BigBenMee and marcepoker17!

I don't really understand why you should raise this flop?
Just call super deep for your ax or gutshot! Thats totally fine imo!
They would never fold to a raise on the flop imo!

Turn/river is standard calldown for these odds... If they bet the river bigger i muck btw!

Greets,
Tiltberger

Hi Bigbenmee,

I believe I would have played the same pre-flop, maybe being so deep, having the position over the limpers and not really happy if someone else gets in I would have made 6/8BB raise, but on the flop I don't really see why you don't raise, even if one of the villans has QT(if is not of diamond) you still are crushing him on the flop, and you wouldn't beat KJ, or any other K, but I believe usually a K would bet much more then 4BB on a drawy flop like this, even donks get aggressive in this situation imo. Such a small donk-bet is often just a way to buy one card for a cheap price, with a draw or sometimes with a J or a 3.
That is a flop that has hit your range, you were the original raiser pre flop, so I wouldn't let him take the action and I would re-raise the flop 22/26BB also bc I want them to pay if they are drawing(if they are going to call not having odds like you said it's their problem bc when they don't hit-70% of the times-you will get the pot), plus with this bet I think you can make them fold a Jx and you probably could get them to re-raise you if they hold a very strong hand (like KJ, JJ, 33, AK, KQ and maybe other Ks, depending on the villans style).

If I played pre flop and flop as I said, if both the opponents called I would just try to keep the pot small therefore flat call the turn and re-evaluate the river, if I'm HU against one villan I would probably re-raise again 60% of the times, maybe 70%.
As you played, on the turn I guess the flat it's fine, the pot is not big and your hand is not so strong to make a re-raise, plus you just get show down value and you still have 3 tens to make the nuts.

The river call it's ok, probably in 2$ MTTs you gonna have the best hand at least 1 every 12 times, but if he bets as he should, so around 40/48BB I would have fold.
If the river is not a diamond and he still bet 5BB I would just call, even when I re-raised flop and turn.
If is not a diamond and he bets strong it would be a tricky situation, I guess you don't have the odds to call here and if you don't have any reads on the villan you need to fold imo bc you didn't invest to much considering you still deep and in the begin of the tournament.
If you did re-raised flop and turn then you could considering a call without a diamond on the river if he bets big bc you have more odds and more chips invested!

When you give a range to them it's fine to put them on QT or KJ but imo you need to add all the other combinations in their limping range: TT-22, ATs-A3s, K9s+, Q9s+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AJo-A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo(then of course in those microstakes you can find players limping JJ+ AK/AQ).

On the flop you beat many of those hands, and even vs 22-TT and Jx you have around 40% equity.

I hope this can help,

If you have any questions or you disagree about something, please let me know!

GL

Marce

By the flop I basically had no idea where I was in the hand. The only hands I could put them on that would limp pre and then bet into me on this flop is those i mentioned. I didn't see myself ahead enough of the time here to raise, but then I also didn't think I was getting the odds to fold.

I have to admit, this hand really confused me while I was playing it.

"The only hands I could put them on that would limp pre and then bet into me on this flop is those i mentioned."

I think you need to be careful on putting the villains on one specific hand pre-flop and on the flop, it could be very dangerous imo.

Regards

Marce

I was trying to put them on a range, but when they lead out the flop, I just couldn't keep them on a lot of the range they had pre. This could have been mistake, but I narrowed down the range to the hands I thought would make that play. Although tbh A5/Q3 wasn't even in the pre-flop range lol.

Originally posted by BigBenMee
I was trying to put them on a range, but when they lead out the flop, I just couldn't keep them on a lot of the range they had pre. This could have been mistake, but I narrowed down the range to the hands I thought would make that play. Although tbh A5/Q3 wasn't even in the pre-flop range lol.

Well I believe pretty much any flush draws, straight draws, Kx (especially with a bad kicker), Jx are fitting in their limping/donk-betting the flop range! Then depending on the villains style the range could change quite a lot, but the possibility they have KJ are the same of them having Ad4d or QcTh.

As I said before I would mainly put him on one of these hands if is donk-betting so small, bc it really looks to me like a bet to buy as cheap as possible the turn. It is very frequent on microstakes!

A5o it's quite common as limp/call pre, I agree Q3s is pretty strange, but then on the flop is just fitting in the possible combos of flush draws!

Hey guys...

Still this is never a raise...even if they have drawing hands, jx or some other combos they like here... on lowlimits they don't fold it very often if they already donk it...
And you raise must be pretty to big to generate fe... risk/reward with just an overcards thats not always clean + a gutter where you need to discount against fds ist just not enough!

Greets,
Tiltberger

Originally posted by Tiltberger
Hey guys...

Still this is never a raise...even if they have drawing hands, jx or some other combos they like here... on lowlimits they don't fold it very often if they already donk it...
And you raise must be pretty to big to generate fe... risk/reward with just an overcards thats not always clean + a gutter where you need to discount against fds ist just not enough!

Greets,
Tiltberger

Ok, I just gonna trust you on this, even if it still not to clear for me...!

Regards

Marce

Against what are you raising?
Are you raising as a bluff or 4 value? Protection?

its neither because you can't raise for value, as a bluff they don't fold often enough on that board, you don't have many redraws and you can't raise for value either!

Originally posted by Tiltberger
Against what are you raising?
Are you raising as a bluff or 4 value? Protection?

its neither because you can't raise for value, as a bluff they don't fold often enough on that board, you don't have many redraws and you can't raise for value either!

I raise against pre-flop limp/calling range, but especially their donk bet on the flop range, as imo they will not fold only flush draws-QT-and Kx(maybe Jx). That is a relative small % of hand from their range.

I raise for protection and in semi-bluff, bc I think here I'm behind many hands that would just fold(22-44 to 99). and if they call with just a draw we are flipping/in front, and if they don't hit it's easier to pick the pot on the river as in microstakes they don't bluff the miss draws to often.

I see what you mean, We aren't drawing to anything(beside 3 tens), but limping range, and especially min donk bet in those limits are clear sings of weakness, so I try to make at least one villain to fold, so I can play vs the other that I believe is on a weak draw or with a top or second pair with a bad kicker-and sometimes with a small PP that is trying just to buy the next card hoping in a set.

Plus I believe you pick a good information with a raise there, especially if we already know something about the villain. A very strong hand that might min donk bet would usually react very aggressive against a re-raise(thinking you are on a draw or with a strong K), but a draw or a weak pair would just flat there, giving you a better idea of where you are at. Obv not always, but microlimitis players are repeating them self very often, and I have seen this action from them many times.

Then is true also the opposite, being in microlimits mean as well that they probably wont pull out crazy plays and especially they are not aggressive as they should be so you probably can just flat them and keep the pot small until the river and then re-evaluate there.

I think the key point of my raise on the flop is the limp/calling range pre, and most of all the donk-bet range on the flop! Without the min(4BB) donk bet, I wouldn't think about re-raise and I would probably play in check/call, maybe check fold depending from the action and the bet sizes on the flop.

Regards

Marce

I hate the raise4information concept here... You don't get very much out of it, besides a huge pot...
And semibluff -> you're semibluffing with not many redraws + not much foldequity! I don't like it all

Originally posted by Tiltberger
I hate the raise4information concept here... You don't get very much out of it, besides a huge pot...
And semibluff -> you're semibluffing with not many redraws + not much foldequity! I don't like it all

I'm semibluffing against his donk-bet range, bc I want him to fold all the weak hand that are beating me, not bc I hope to improve much if he doesn't fold. I wouldn't semibluff without him donk betting and my raise for info here is just to have one information: what his donk-bet stands for, if he donk-bet and he doesn't 3bet my re-raise I'm more positive he's on the range I thought he was!

But as I said before I really trust you on this, I believe that your play is better, but my mind here is just naturally making this thinking process I guess bc I'm used to see so many times min donk bet made just to buy cards, especially in early stage and they often do them with second or third pair(not just with flush draws).

Regards

Marce

I seem to have caused quite a stir with a couple of my hands lol. Nice to get two different opinions.

Hey marce
I'm totaly happy with your thinking process and that you try to find your own game... there is nut just one solution out there!

min donk bet made just to buy cards

the problem is that we don't really beat his drawing range with aq. So we're never really ahead in this spot! It would be different if we had tp or something like this... Then i would love a raise!

Greets,
Tiltberger

Originally posted by Tiltberger
Hey marce
I'm totaly happy with your thinking process and that you try to find your own game... there is nut just one solution out there!

min donk bet made just to buy cards

the problem is that we don't really beat his drawing range with aq. So we're never really ahead in this spot! It would be different if we had tp or something like this... Then i would love a raise!

Greets,
Tiltberger

Really happy to hear this. I know there isn't just one way to play, but I would like my mind to understand what's the better one, and then maybe use it, or not depending on situations and villains.

I didn't really understand why your way was better then mine, altrought I know it is, but your sentece made me understand now!
the problem is that we don't really beat his drawing range with aq
This is very clear now, I thought I believed the opposite, that's why I wanted to re-raise him.

Thanks for the long explanation, sorry I took so long to get it! ♦

Regards

Marce

hey you're welcome.... happy to help you
Greets,

Tiltberger