Pokerstrategy members scammed by Damian Copeland, "Spungeh"

Originally posted by Spungeh

Originally posted by maritsula
If you agree, reply here and we will discuss details of repayment plan in skype.

we can talk on skype.

What we will talk on skype is a repayment plan for my £900. I promise to be as flexible as possible since you are short on money. Do you agree so we can start discussing details of the repayment plan?

Originally posted by Spungeh
clearly shows the spikes

Spoiler

Spoiler

ofc you can see the spikes! those graphs are the ones people got reimporting your hands! Those ones are the real graphs!

The spikes were not on the graphs you sent to your stackers which can be found in TT's first post on page 6 of this thread.

@Stakers:
Do I have it correct that you believe he breached the agreement by :
1) failing to give regular report on the stake
2) misrepresenting his wins/losses
3) using the stake money to play "out of stake" games

Kindly confirm if I am right and complete if I left out something

I agree with all 3 points written above.

@Mindan:
Could you please tell us when and how much each payment to spungeh was made.

Also confirm that, seen from your point of view, which of these payments were in connection with a stake.

Also please tell us if you believed whether you were the only staker or whether you believed there were also other stakers.

All my payments to Spungeh: -1. 4550 EUR on January 31 2013: of those 4550 EUR, 2000 GBP was 35% for our live deal, 1k USD (736 EUR) was for online NL100 and 1473 EUR was for online NL200.

I believed there were other stakers for our NL200 live deal. I believed that from January 31 2013 (when I first met Damian in skype chat) until we visited him in Birmigham (21-26 March 2013).

Originally posted by mindan
I believed there were other stakers for our NL200 live deal. I believed that from January 31 2013 (when I first met Damian in skype chat) until we visited him in Birmigham (21-26 March 2013).

Originally posted by mindan
-5. 2316 EUR on 6 March 2013: another 35% of our live NL200 deal (because other guys refused to continue backing him)

Originally posted by maritsula
I made an official contract with Damian Copeland for £900. The contract can be found here

This contract has been breached numerous times which have been pointed out 1 23

Breaches of contract include:
1.failing to give regular report on the stake as agreed
2.failing to pay out monthly shares of profit as agreed
3.making a new contract with a 3rd party for the same product
4.claiming the stake was lost on the 31st of January while its clear from the data he provided that the value of the stake at that date was £3645

Under UK contract law, a breach of a contract under in any of the 5 breaches i provided equates to Repudiation of contract and therefore return of the investment and possible damages.

Even the misrepresentation that was made prior to the contract that TwiceT had "way over 6 figures invested in me" is enough for a rescission of the contract.

I am therefore asking for £900 only and not claiming any damages. I am offering you a flexible repayment plan that will be agreed mutually in skype.

If you agree, reply here and we will discuss details of repayment plan in skype.

Thank you for this response this is really productive.

I do not really want to deal with what remedy you claiming at this time but kindly advise on what basis do you not consider yourself bound to the agreement of the 28th of March. I mean if he had paid the money on the 29th of March would that not have been the end of the matter between you and him?

Originally posted by mineriva
Thank you for this response this is really productive.

I do not really want to deal with what remedy you claiming at this time but kindly advise on what basis do you not consider yourself bound to the agreement of the 28th of March. I mean if he had paid the money on the 29th of March would that not have been the end of the matter between you and him?

The agreement on 29th March for £525 is not enforceable as at the time this agreement was made I was not aware of many things which include:

a) That Damian Copeland sold the remaining 35% of the stake to Mindan for £2000 on the 31st January
b) That Damian Copeland terminated our contract on the 6th of March by telling Mindan "Live stake is open up again" and then proceeding the sell him the other 75% for £2000
c) That Damian Copeland stated verbally to Mindan that he has 100% of the live cash action in Birmingham at the 23th of March. SF was witness to this conversation.
d) That Damian Copeland made a revised contract with Mindan on the 27th of March for an additional 5300 euros

"The agreement on 29th March for £525 is not enforceable as at the time this agreement was made I was not aware of many things which include"

Understood.

@spungeh do you maintain that the matter between you and maritsula was resolved with the conclusion of the agreement at the end of march or can I disregard it. Kindly note that I am NOT asking you whether you agree with the basis why he believes he is not bound by it. I am just asking whether you believe yourself and him to be boung by it.

Originally posted by mindan
@Stakers:
Do I have it correct that you believe he breached the agreement by :
1) failing to give regular report on the stake
2) misrepresenting his wins/losses
3) using the stake money to play "out of stake" games

Kindly confirm if I am right and complete if I left out something

I agree with all 3 points written above.

@Mindan:
Could you please tell us when and how much each payment to spungeh was made.

Also confirm that, seen from your point of view, which of these payments were in connection with a stake.

Also please tell us if you believed whether you were the only staker or whether you believed there were also other stakers.

All my payments to Spungeh: -1. 4550 EUR on January 31 2013: of those 4550 EUR, 2000 GBP was 35% for our live deal, 1k USD (736 EUR) was for online NL100 and 1473 EUR was for online NL200.

-2. 1494 EUR on February 11 2013: first topup for online NL200

-3. 3936 EUR on 25 February 2013: second topup for online NL200

-4. 769 EUR on 4 March 2013: money for coaching with TT

-5. 2316 EUR on 6 March 2013: another 35% of our live NL200 deal (because other guys refused to continue backing him)

-6. 200 GBP on 26 March 2013 (live at the bus station before leaving Birmingham after being at Damian's place for 5 days): top up for our live NL200 deal

-7. 5300 EUR on 28 March 2013: top up for our live NL200 deal

-8. 2840 EUR on 2 April 2013: last topup for our live NL200 deal

I believed there were other stakers for our NL200 live deal. I believed that from January 31 2013 (when I first met Damian in skype chat) until we visited him in Birmigham (21-26 March 2013).

Thank you Mindan for your imput.

So you at all times were aware of the other stakers and you believed yourself to be part of the group. Under those circumstances it seems that your claim is on par with that of the others. I was therefore mistaken in stating that you claim is different from theirs.

Ok so looking at the breach from your point of view:

1) Report Back
a. Kindly advise how often it was agreed that he would report back. If possible show where this was agreed.
b. Kindly advise what difference, if any, it made to you that he did not comply with this term of the agreement. {please note that what I am trying to ascertain is why you believe this breach is material}

2) Misrepresentation of the "state of the stake"
a. Kindly, as far as possible, advise what you believed the "state of the stake" was when each payment was made.
b. When, if ever, did spungeh inform you that any (referring to each individual payment as if it is a separate stake) or all the stake money was lost.
c. Kindly advise what difference, if any, it made to you that he misrepresented the "state of the stake". (I do not wish to tell you what you should say but, in order that you understand the meaning of my question, I am aware of the allegation that spungeh represented to you and/or the other stackers that he was winning in order to secure further payments)

3) Playing "out of stake"

a. I believe this is self evident but kindly confirm that it was not agreed that he may use your money to play "out of stake"
b. Kindly advise what difference, if any, it made to you that he played out of stake.

After the Stakers have responded to the above I intend to present it to spungeh.

@spungeh kindly wait until I present it to you before responding. This is because I shall formulate the questions from your point of view. This should help us to properly define the issues relating to the "breach of the agreement"

I was aware of other stakers and aware of being part of a group. But I never knew who »other stakers« were, who the group was.

1) a. Report agreement for online deal:

[31.1.2013 18:30:09] mindan: basically we'll have recent updates since you'll get the 5k hands very quickly. For update I mean you send me the graph with all 3 lines
[31.1.2013 18:30:48] Damian: [31. Januar 2013 18:32] mindan:

<<< basically we'll have recent updates since you'll get the 5k hands very quickly. For update I mean you send me the graph with all 3 lines« yep.. ill be playing from tomorrow.
[31.1.2013 18:59:20] Damian: so every 5000 hands online
[31.1.2013 18:59:23] Damian: and every night ill update for live
[31.1.2013 18:59:39] mindan: right
[31.1.2013 19:00:15] mindan: if you reach 5k and I'm not on skype, which will happen often IMO, just send a pic to my email
[31.1.2013 19:00:21] Damian: ok
1) b. The difference was that I was unable to get a clear view about how were we doing with our online staking deal.

2) a)
i) On 31st January when I first paid 4550 from which 2000 GBP was for the 35% live stake. I was aware that I was part of a group stake but Damian did not include me in the staking group in skype, neither update his stake thread on PS.com. (which he did not provide) However, he posted on the skype group that »sold the other 35% to a guy«. This can be found in Maristula's screenshots . I did not know that the value of the stake was for £3000 and therefore I Damian made me overpay 950 GBP, since 35% of 3000 GBP is 1050 GBP while I paid 2000 GBP. To be precise this is the information I had in skype:
[31.1.2013 17:22:27] Damian: you stake? Im in the middle of live + online.. so both my bankrolls are low ♦ So im getting stakes in order to cover it all ♦
35% left for my live stake

ii) At the time of the second payment on February 11 2013, I under the impression that the state of the stake was that Damian had 1700 USD left for our online deal and had won between 300 GBP and 400 GBP in the live deal:
Reports for live deal:
[4.2.2013 16:52:50] Damian: made £17 yesterday live (facepalm)

[10.2.2013 20:46:27] Damian: ok thats fine.
Obv 1/2 way there for NL200, and live was slow this week due to GPS, but i think im +£300/400

iii)on the 15th of February this happened which was very weird but I did not pay much attention to. I didnt make any payment that day but i believe it's worth mentioning. Here Damian acknowledges the fact that I am part of a group stake

iv) At the time of the third payment, on 25 February 2013, I under the impression Damian lost 690 USD in our online stake deal and +470 GBP with our live deal. Damian
Reports for live deal:
[11.2.2013 17:05:38] Damian: oh Live is going (y) btw
[11.2.2013 17:05:40] Damian: I forgot to keep updates
[11.2.2013 17:05:58] Damian: not there until wednesday now, but we are +£3xx
[11.2.2013 17:06:16] Damian: $470~ but that was during GPS week ♦ So get ready for some bigger pay days
v) At the time of the fourth payment, on 4 March 2013, I was under the impression Damian lost 1093 USD in our online stake deal and was up at least 1000 GBP i our live deal.

vi)At the time of the fifth payment, on 6 March 2013, this was the conversation between us.
[6.3.2013 18:33:06 | Edited 18:34:26] Damian: 2. Live stake is open if you want to do an arrangement to buy the rest up..

You have 35% already? I think itll be £3000~ and ill give you another 35% for it for the first 10,000 hands... then we go 50/50.
[6.3.2013 18:36:35] mindan: 2. --> I don't know what you mean but for now, I'd prefer to wait until we show some solid results in both online and live stakes. So staying at 35%

I was under the impression the status of the live stake was at £5300 as when I asked

[6.3.2013 18:40:35] mindan: please ship the graph/results of live play so far
He posted this
[6.3.2013 18:57:51] Damian: they are in 2 different apps, so will merge them together myself,
Total Profit = £5300 (£300~ On travel)

Keep in mind that this was his explanation in regards to the other stakers

vii)At the time of the sixth payment, on 26 March 2013, I was under the impression Damian lost 4698 USD in our online deals and I didn't know what the state for our live deal was. I didn't get an exact update from him.

viii) At the time of the seventh payment, on 28 March 2013 I was under the impression Damian lost 6016 USD in our online stake deals and won somewhere between 1000 GBP and 1500 GBP. He said he was at 5.5bb/100 after me and Schnitzelfisch left Birmigham. But I didn't receive any report from him as we agreed I would have.

ix) At the time of the eighth payment, on April 2 2013, I was under the impression Damian lost about (no exact updates) 5016 USD in our online stake deals and won between 1000 GBP and 1500 GBP in our live stake deal.
The first time I got a report from him about having lost money in our live deals was on 17 April 2013, when he sent me an incomplete report about his live play.

2)b . Damian never said to me that all the money from separate payments (nor the entire sum) was lost. He only reported that he was down and needed more.

2)c. The fact that I did't get the exact data from Damian resulted in me believing he was doing ok with our deals (doing ok EV wise, but running massively under EV) thus sending him more money. I would't send more money if I knew that he was playing poorly.

3) a. I confirm, that it was not agreed that he may use my money to play »out of stake«

b. The fact that he played out of stake did not make any difference to me because I didn't know about it. The first time I saw he played out of the agreement was during my stay in Birmingham, when I saw about 100 hands played at NL400. I I knew about him playing »out of the stake«, I would end all our stake deals.

This is something I never expected. The money involved is really not much Damian! IF you indeed did make a mistake just admit to it and try to work it out with stakers!

For the community sake!

Ok thank you Mindan.

@spungeh:

At the risk of sounding prejudice I must say that I do not believe you can maintain that you did not breach the agreement with mindan. (we still waiting response from the other stakers).

1) Report Back.
a. It seems that there was, not surprisingly, an agreement that you would either report back every 2 weeks or every 5K hands. (Depending where you read)
b. It seems clear that you did not report back every 5K hands or every 2 weeks.
c. Please tell me if I am wrong in the above.
d. Kindly take note that I am NOT asking you to comment on the effect of this breach. We may need to discuss that later. Specifically, and without derogating the generality of the above statement, I am NOT saying that I am of the view that every staker that fails to give proper and regular report backs will always be liable to give back the stake.

2) Misrepresenting the wins/losses
a. Please confirm formally: "when, if ever, did you lose the Stake that you received from Maritsula et al?"
b. Please confirm formally: "when, if ever, did you lose the complete Stake that you received from Mindan"
c. If your reply is that you never lost all the money received by any party kindly state how much money remains in the Stake and from whom the money was received.
d. If your reply is that you have in fact lost the complete Stake received by any party kindly state when and how you informed them that the Stake was lost.

3) Playing out of Stake:
a. Do you agree that you played out of Stake?
b. Which of the Stakers money did you use to play so?
c. How much did you win/lose playing so?

Kindly note that I still await a reply as to your attitude relating to the agreement of the 28/29 March. I am hoping to hear that it means that you and he are negotiating.

Finally I must confess that I do not believe that you can maintain that you complied with all your obligations in terms of the stake. I have seen to many skype statements by you where you admit that you should have reported more or better. Furthermore you admitted just above this that you played out of stake with Mindan's money. I believe we should move on and discuss the effect of or the seriousness of the breach now.

@ Everyone reading this.
I must say that I am very happy to see the parties engaging in this dispute resolution process. I am aware that I am asking very difficult questions from all parties and the co-operation of the parties per se is bringing the facts to the open.

1a. The agreement constantly changed to when I should or shouldn't report back specific data. Although I would also keep mindan upto date with what was happening, just made not specific numbers. I actually told him about my first big lose and he refused to believe me.

1b. Yeah as said, it was unclear to me after so many changes, it wasn't only changed during Skype chats, but calls and when we spoke in person to.

1c. Answered above

1d. I don't believe the full amount should ever be paid back.

2a. The actual stake for this was lost within a week or so of playing, January time. But I kept it afloat with top'd up funds from my own pocket.

2b. I'm not sure on the dates, but around the time I swapped to HU play. Whenever that was.

2d. I informed mindan regularly over Skype that the bankroll was extremely low, but he kept shrugging of the fact that it was and just refused to believe me. I let the other stackers know about the bankroll and that I topped up with my own funds fairly early ( not on computer, don't have Skype to get logs) although towards end of march I declared the stake over. But I declared the bankroll was dead earlier than this.

3a. Yes

3b. Mindans

3c. Around 1,000-1,500USD

I would like to point out that me and mindan never had an official stake contract, so other than each others word/trust there were no guidelines to the stake.

In regard to the other stake, it was firstly done via this website.

I am more than willing to hear what people are saying numbers wise and going from there, if mindan, and others want to reply to this post with the amount they believe I have to pay, I can agree/disagree and go from there, if I agree we can then talk in private about a payment plan. And if I disagree we can carry on this talk. If they disagree then we can carry on to. But I would like to end ASAP and this seems the quickest way. So @mindan etc post a figure., or agree to mine.

@mindan

In Skype, you said you believe I have to pay back 10,000EUR I said 5,000USD. So we can meet in the middle at the 6000-7000EUR mark. If you agree, accept on here and well discuss in private.

@martisula

You want £900 and we can discuss this on Skype.

@others

Give me a number.

thank you spungeh for the reply.

I will give the parties a day or two to see if they can come to some agreement. It seems there is some meaningfull discussion going on.

@mineriva

You are doing this professionally and I appreciate that

Hoping this all gets sorted out.

Just my input and doesn't need to be taken any further but Spungeh:

- Your maths doesn't add up
- Your assertions don't agree with the logs provided here
- With large sums of money lent/owed to friends, you should have kept a better record and logs, which could have helped avoid/solve this situation
- Your posts on here are riddled with grammatical and spelling errors, which doesn't come across very professionally when trying to put across your points. Try structuring your 'arguments' a bit more clearly and hopefully it will help to get everyone on the same page

Anyway, that's not an attack at you Damian, merely my impressions from reading this whole thread in one go. You and your stakers seem like decent people and I hope it gets sorted

Originally posted by doctorkgb
@mineriva

You are doing this professionally and I appreciate that

+1

edit: I asked this before but think it was missed. To the backers: Did Spungeh show you any graphs etc. of previous results before you entered a staking agreement?

Judging from the discrepancies between the graph sent to mindan and the graph once all the hands had been imported this could be an important point.

Originally posted by Spungeh
2a. The actual stake for this was lost within a week or so of playing, January time. But I kept it afloat with top'd up funds from my own pocket.

:facepalm:

Actual report for the stake being almost lost was on the 28th of March
Then Damian said that it was beginning of March
Then end of January

Now he says he lost the stake (£3000) within 7 days of the stake actually starting.

(The stake started on the 10th January+7=17th)

This was the report on the 16th/17th of January when Damian claims the stake was lost.

This was the photo sent to the group stake on the 18th of January

This was full report on the 23rd of January

These are the skype staker chat logs until end of January. Only edit made was the stakers name. There is no reference of the stake being lost of any sort. Feel free to check it for yourselves.

http://pdfcast.org/pdf/january-skype-staker-group-chat-log

I replied to Damian on skype offering a repayment plan over 18 months which I think is more the enough/fair.

I have not received a reply yet.

The sooner we get this over the best for everyone.

I replied on skype, several hours ago.

I am just an observer who has taken an interest in this thread through curiosity. I have taken the time to read everything start to finish. I then went back and reread the thread. I have made notes, and reread it again.
Even though none of you know me nor I you, I feel compelled to give my 2 cents as I have seen this done before. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.

I am an old gambler (59 years old), been doing it for 40 years on and off, put myself through 3 years of University doing it, and if there is one thing I know it is a CON, and all of you are being conned and here are my reasons why.

1-He has up to 3 different staking deals going at the same time.
a-If you read back the time line confirms that, including his statement that sometimes he is using his own money exclusively. How can that be when there are backers involved?

2-Records were never kept
a-When you are talking money, no matter the amount, as a small investment by one can equal a big investment to another, haphazard record keeping is just showing you don't really care what happens.
b-the amounts won and lost and when the money was won and lost keep changing depending on who he is talking to at the time as there are no records.

3-When he does report he gives ficticious graphs omitting things.
a-he played over the stake agreement only admitting to doing so when confronted with the real graphs showing it.

4-He doesn't keep his word when agreeing to talk on skype at times
a-having a broken mike and not caring enough to get it fixed.

5-Has lied about his relationship with who I take is an outstanding member of this community.

My conclusion.
1-Some of you brought some of this on yourselves by backing an unproven player whos background you took for granted because of some of the people he knows.

2-He saw a bunch of easy marks he could free-roll a poker stake off of.
a- IMO if he won he would have paid you all back with a little profit keeping most of the profit for himself. He lost or spent it as records are non-existent/ incomplete.

3-I am willing to put my reputation on the line and say without a doubt.
EVEN IF AN AGREEMENT CAN BE REACHED BETWEEN ALL THE PARTIES INVOLVED, IT WILL BE BROKEN WITH ONE EXCUSE AFTER ANOTHER SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

If any of you feel I am out of line for stating my observations then feel free to delete this post.

Good luck, you will need it.