KQo in BTN after a raise PF

Can't do anything but fold the flop.

FOLD PREFLOP

Don't matter how aggresive UTG raiser is - I'm never calling UTG raise with KQo having just 21bbs.

With that kind of stack, you should pick hands or spots when you will be willing to go allin either Pre or Postflop - because you are gonna commit yourself to the pot anyway.

In this case it would be something like:
AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT, maybe 99 but it's close
and:
AKs , AKo, AQs, AQo, maybe AJs

I'm not getting involved in any kind of way with rest of the hands having just 21bbs vs UTG raiser

We are nowhere near committed anywhere in the hand with 21bbs.

Flatting with a bunch of broadway hands in position is absolutely fine with 20bbs, even to an UTG raise. We get to the flop with almost 10k behind and the pot is 3650 (it's often going to be less as blinds will fold some of the time). There is plenty of room to manoeuvre and I am sure we can outplay most villains at these stakes.

Originally posted by Wohmfg
We are nowhere near committed anywhere in the hand with 21bbs.

Flatting with a bunch of broadway hands in position is absolutely fine with 20bbs, even to an UTG raise. We get to the flop with almost 10k behind and the pot is 3650 (it's often going to be less as blinds will fold some of the time). There is plenty of room to manoeuvre and I am sure we can outplay most villains at these stakes.

## this!
Against an agressive player I def. flat there too!

As played easy fold against the potsize cbet!

Greets,
Tiltberger

wow...

#1 His PFR is 9. What do you guys think he is going to raise with from UTG?
(positional statistics of RFI from UTG would be more relevant anyway)

#2 Wohmfg - obviously you are not commited straight after flatting, but you can easily commit yourself postflop if you are going to try to "outmaneuver" UTG raiser with a 35bbs big stack, when you only have 20bbs

I mean - what's your plan? Call the Flop, Check/Raise theTurn?

With 20bbs stack - there is no room to play many hands postflop at all...
It's the middle phase of the tournament for you - play tighter - pick spots wiser...

#3 The chance that players on blinds are gonna flat and create big multiway pot are massive - they are priced in with a very wide range

Wrong Hero's stack, wrong VillainS stacks, wrong opponent, no folding equity, everything here is just wrong...

To be honest I didn't take the stats into consideration as we don't know how many hands we have.

Hmmm, I don't know what your definition of committed is. If he bets flop and turn then we are committed by calling the turn. Getting to the turn facing this much aggression is one scenario of many that can happen. I don't see much value in saying that we can easily commit ourselves because it is not that useful to the discussion.

What is my plan for what? How specific do you want me to be? What flop textures do you want me to explain what I'd do on?

Here are some of my assumptions about the hand that I am not sure you will agree on: UTG doesn't have tight range, we can steal the pot with a bluff, we are not always facing even one street of aggression, we can hit a nice hand, we are not always dominated pre.

That's why I call a lot here and hopefully make a lot of chips!

By committed i meant having to call ALL-IN because of good pot odds when being behind on hand Equity.

What is my plan for what?

What is your plan for outmaneuvering your opponent? I meant in general.
Because the only way to do it on different boards is to raise him at any point right?

Let's say you check/raise bluff some flops to take it there on some occasions:

Flop: X X X Pot is 3,650, and let's say he CBets to ~2000

Pot is now ~5650 and you have ~9800 behind (he's got lots more)

What kind of sizing options you have for your raise here to generate folding equity without committing yourself to the pot if getting called or reraised?

None.

Even if you go for the cheap bluff and check/raise him x2 (when he would only fold total air):

Pot would be 9650 and you would have 5800 behind

If he calls there for the cheap 2000 more, the Pot would be 11650 and you would have only 5800 behind!

What are your options for outmanouvering there?

None.

You have to either Shove or call a Shove

It's absolute basics of tournament play and Pot planning - to avoid committing yourself to the Pot like that.

UTG doesn't have tight range

PFR9 from UTG is most definetely tight range

we can steal the pot with a bluff

there is very small folding equity

we are not always facing even one street of aggression

depends on player and position, in this case:
UTG raiser + PFR9 + AGG 78% - You can expect a CB on pretty much 90% of flops
Because he is only raising preflop 9% - he's gonna protect it very often

we can hit a nice hand

vs HIS UTG raise we need atleast 2 pair for a comfy stack off

we are not always dominated pre.

KQo plays badly against most UTG raises in general - we are in fact either dominated or fliping preflop

That's why I call a lot here and hopefully make a lot of chips!

To win a lot of chips in the long run you need to invest small amounts fairly rarely and win big amounts relatively often enough to make up for the chips you have invested when did not win
- mathematically impossible when you have 20bbs and KQo vs UTG raise of PFR9 player.

This is good for deepstacks, not for 20bbs stack which is closer the to push or fold then to midstack strategy heh

I didn't say I would outmanoeuvre villain.

My plan is to evaluate every street and decide on the best action based on the way the board runs out. I am willing to discuss specifics in depth. But, please don't propose the scenario where the flop is XXX and we have to generate fold equity... This is a useless task. It is unrealistic. And your implication that whoever flats pre here with KQ misunderstands tournament basics because we have committed ourselves to the hand (when we haven't even committed ourselves at all by that turn!!!), when in reality the hand is going to have many different permutations (and we are going to have many different options other than bluff him off his nutted hand.....) based on board texture, is insulting.

Btw, we can still fold turn in your example.

You are misunderstanding a lot of what I am saying and trying to fit it into your view of the hand where we are absolutely burning chips.

Also, if the hand sample is 50+ then I am happy to put some weight into the 9% PFR and just fold pre.

I have no intentions to insult you, if you felt like that - i'm sorry.
I just believe that this is -EV play in the long run.
Are you using Holdem Manager2 or Poker Tracker 2?
Can you filter hands when you had KQo , 20bbs and flatted EP/MP raise and display results?

It's fine.

I do have HEM2, but only got about 6k hands cause only been using it on this computer for 3 days.

cool

You are right btw, bad example, pot odds 30% are not the best on the Turn, we can pass and leave 10bbs behind

I've got some questions if that's ok

#1 What would you do in similar spot - but holding hand like 77?
#2 What would you do with KQo - but from SB?
#3 What would you do with 77 - but from SB?

I'm not being funny, I was thinking about this whole hand and i thought that flatting with KQo InPosition is maybe not so bad with 20bbs afterall
i dunno now

I'm glad you're open to the idea of flatting with these kind of hands in position because they can make a few chips imo! Against tougher opponents or at higher stakes then I might be more inclined to fold, but I believe the edge we can have postflop is so great that I am not going to pass up on these spots.

Haha these scenarios are tough for me... These are just my thoughts:

1. With antes and 21 bigs I just stick it in as long as there is no bubble factor. We get quite a few folds and we are in ok shape when called. Without antes it's tough and I might just fold. Flatting is the worst option against unknowns imo, against some players or a raise from later positions I can call.

2. Fold is the only option I can see. We lose position which is important for a hand like KQ where some of its strength is draws/overcards that we can semibluff with when faced with passiveness. This right here is a big argument for seeing a flop with position with this hand for me. So many times I see an UTG raise then I'm checked to on the flop and I can take it down. Of course I see a lot of big hands being raised UTG as well, but to let this go preflop in position is losing some chips I think.

3. Similar to 1, I am likely to shove. Never flatting.

That's what i thought - penny dropped

Before i was like: "surely we could not just flat with let's say 77 there, we would have to push or fold - so why we could just flat with KQo?"
Cuz to me 20bbs stack was always good for either either:
Open Pushing / Isolating / Raising for value/ Inducing Shoves / Blindwars vs atleast MP3 / or Folding.
Did not see any spots where i could play it postflop when just chasing draws.

I can kind of see now that playability of hand like KQo, ONLY In Position, for cheap 2bbs is sometimes not too bad with 20bbs.

If UTG raise x3 pre - would you pass?

Yes I fold to a 3x with KQo, partly due to a bigger price and partly due to the fact that 3x is normally a stronger range. 77 gets mucked too, but TT I get it in.

And yeah you're absolutely right, I fold KQo to an UTG range almost anywhere but the button with this stack. Position is critical in these situations.

I think 20bbs is a fine stack to steal from mid-late positions as well, especially against tight opponents. At these stakes and even higher you are NOT getting many resteals.

I think so too. If it's unlikely for anyone behind to jam with 8bbs+ and there are antes, I'm stealing all day long from HighJack onwards

I wonder if dondiego2000 is happy with the whole analysis of his hand hehe

Thanks guys! That was quite an answer to analyze my hand

nice discussion guys ♠_love: ♠_love: ♠_love: