[Closed] Bckdrflush' SnG Story

I'm ITM in 2 of my first 10, but then 4 of my last 7 for 35% so far. My variance seems small enough to handle, and the tourneys are kind of fun if a bit fast.

I think I do even better at normal speed tourneys, skill has more value there, but it's a tradeoff in $/hr. I'm not sure how much, and if it would be better to play normal speed tourneys... I might try one day playing all $5 tourneys as an experiment.

A hand I don't want to repeat, one of the first hands in the tourney, on the button with AQs, and a pretty big raise just called. I hit the turn with the Q but didn't see his KK coming. Top pair top kicker beware.

Bankroll $590 but a scant 14 tourneys in. I also intend to play the odd MTT (I can't resist) especially when the buyin is under $5. I'm in the $2.22 second chance 2X tourney now - and registered for the freeroll 2x tourney (5 packages to WCOOP) which will be interesting.

Current mood: Optimistic
Drink: Tea no sugar
Smoking: Moderate
Music: Arthur Lee and Love, Velevet Underground
Weather: Clearing up.

Favourite hand of first mini session. 3 Players left, I fail to see that one player has only 2 chips left - and just call thinking that me and the other player will check down the hand and bust him out. It didn't quite play out that way.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$6.00+$0.50
2 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
BTN trechat (6548)
BB Hero (6950)

Blinds: /600 Ante 50

Pre-flop: (702, 2 players) Hero is BB 8♣ Q♣
trechat calls 600, Hero checks

Flop: 8♠ Q♠ 9♣ (1302, 2 players)
Hero checks, trechat bets 1800, Hero goes all-in 6300, trechat goes all-in 4098

Turn: 8♥ (13500, 2 players)

River: 2♠ (13500, 2 players)
Hero says "yes"

Final Pot: 13098
trechat shows: K♦ J♥
xxdavid shows: 4♣ 6♦
Hero shows: 8♣ Q♣

Hero wins 13500 ( won +6600 )
trechat lost -6498

Youtube has my favourite song by Arthur Lee - with Jimi on guitars called Ever Lasting first .. gives me chills

update.. just lost AK to AK in the $2.22, but I've still got a full stack left, and another chance to buyin for the next 30mins if I go broke. Good thing I stacked 44 with my KK earlier...

update2: only played another 2 or so hands in the tourney.. first one I open raise from the button with TT, get beaten by the small blind who goes all in with 66. I'm down to one stack blinds are getting big. I go all in UTG with TT, the big stack calls with 88 and beats me - hits a straight beating my trips... not such a fun way to lose a tourney. at least I never had to rebuy.

Things are starting to become a bit clearer...I'm ITM for 6 of my last 7 SNG's. After looking at all 18 from my session, it's clear that I didn't make very many mistakes, possibly folding too much on the blinds and not stealing enough with bad hands in good spots. When I see people stealing from the button w A4o and I'm folding AJo or even 88 am I too tight?

At low levels people push too tight and call too loose, but on pokerstars the pushing seems arbitrary. Even the tightest players will try to steal with nothing, and if anything people are calling tight.

I folded TT in one of the last tourneys with 6 players left.. it got me ITM and eventually 2nd. I lost to a bad beat heads up (seems to be a pattern with the A falling on the river .. in fact I'm going to open up my pushing range w. A later in the game if the trend keeps up.)

I would have cashed in 7 out of my last 7 had it not been for a bad push on the bubble, after a 2.5BB raise from CO I reraised my short stack with JJ - but ran into KK. No suckout.. I'm not sure if I wouldn't do the same thing again.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$6.00+$0.50
4 players

Stacks:
CO Old Wolf NZ (6070)
BTN Alpha70 (1705)
SB cardgup (3850)
BB Hero (1875)

Blinds: 100/200 Ante 25

Pre-flop: (400, 4 players) Hero is BB J♦ J♥
1 fold, Alpha70 raises to 500, 1 fold, Hero goes all-in 1850, Alpha70 goes all-in 1180

Flop: 9♠ A♦ 2♥ (3730, 2 players)

Turn: 8♦ (3730, 2 players)

River: Q♠ (3730, 2 players)

Final Pot: 3560
Hero shows: J♦ J♥
Alpha70 shows: K♥ K♣

Hero wins 170 ( lost -1680 )
Alpha70 wins 3560 ( won +1880 )

Here's the hand with the TT that I folded - I also folded AJo a few times in position, and also lower to mid pairs out of position late, which is tighter than usual for me.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$6.00+$0.50
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:

CO PIayItSmart (1840)
BTN Hero (2920)

Blinds: 100/200 Ante 25

Pre-flop: (450, 6 players) Hero is BTN T♣ T♥
2 folds, PIayItSmart goes all-in 1815, Hero folds, 2 folds

Final Pot: 650

PIayItSmart wins 2265 ( won +450 )

After that it was clear sailing to the money.. just lost a bad one at the end. Pushed with 44 heads up (a long battle back and forth) and got called w A3o. I'd been pushing tight even, but still the A came on the river, so sad

I've completed 18 tourneys at 45% ITM. ROI could be a bit better, but it's still above zero :-)

I played two low buy in MTT's for 2$, and still on one. I had an interesting free play after making the money on a new total unknown table. Scary!

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$2.00+$0.20
8 players

Stacks:
UTG+1 pokkitpairs (3260)
MP2 Sir Codealot (7011)
BTN akrettek (20774)
BB Hero (5730)

Blinds: 150/300 Ante 25

Pre-flop: (650, 8 players) Hero is BB T♥ 8♥
1 fold, pokkitpairs calls 300, 1 fold, Sir Codealot calls 300, 1 fold, akrettek calls 300, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: 7♠ T♠ 5♥ (1550, 4 players)
Hero checks, pokkitpairs checks, Sir Codealot bets 600, 1 fold, Hero raises to 1800, pokkitpairs folds, Sir Codealot calls 1200

I see that codealots's bet is only slightly more than 1/3 the pot. I don't know where I am, but he didn't raise preflop, it's possible he hit a pair, or more likely a draw - flush draw I think. I have no reads at all, but I need to find out where I am with top pair at least so I raise. I think I can afford it and I've already made the money (all $2.50 of it) I'm ready to fold if he fights back and my hand doesn't improve or draw outs hit for him. He just calls my raise - another indication it's was a blocking bet or a value bet for a draw.

Turn: 8♦ (5150, 2 players)
Hero goes all-in 3605, Sir Codealot calls 3605

I'm committed to the pot, I've got a good size bet left to scare off any flush draw that didn't hit. I'm not thinking about a straight draw, but it's possible with 578T on the board that I'm beat by a straight, like 9J - but then again, I was called on the flop. Two pair? I still have outs if I'm beaten and some fold equity I assume, thought I don't know his range. I'm a below average stack and would need to make a move soon anyway. It's one of those pivotal moments in a tourney - I like it better than a coinflip so I go for it

River: 5♦ (12360, 2 players)

Final Pot: 12360
Hero shows: T♥ 8♥
Sir Codealot shows: 9♥ 8♣

Hero wins 12360 ( won +6655 )
akrettek lost -300
pokkitpairs lost -300
Sir Codealot lost -5705

I get a bit dumb and try to bluff the SB to my right on a freeplay. He's very loose and it ends up I should have been more aggressive or better just check folded all the way down than firing 3 bullets which he called all of with A3o even w. 2 two K's falling - straight and flush draws and all kinds of danger.

Later I get back, I get a free play with 72s, flop gives me two pair, so I push, luckily someone has KQ and calls and I double up. This might take a while, but I'm not ready to start some more SNG's for tonight...

Finished 73rd out of 1350 players.. finally. I mean, another two hours would have been worth the money but I got busted pushing JJ from MP into the button who luckily had AA. I was down to 4BB or so at the time and kinda glad to be out in a way. Had this been a tighter tourney, maybe higher buyin, there would have been many more opportunities for completing.. I was waiting to complete 78s with limpers when TT and 88 raised before me. two 7's on the flop, but my cards were in the muck.

Originally posted by bckdrflush
1.When I see people stealing from the button w A4o and I'm folding AJo or even 88 am I too tight?

2.I folded TT in one of the last tourneys with 6 players left.. it got me ITM and eventually 2nd. I lost to a bad beat heads up (seems to be a pattern with the A falling on the river .. in fact I'm going to open up my pushing range w. A later in the game if the trend keeps up.)

3.I would have cashed in 7 out of my last 7 had it not been for a bad push on the bubble, after a 2.5BB raise from CO I reraised my short stack with JJ - but ran into KK. No suckout.. I'm not sure if I wouldn't do the same thing again.

Man i am rookie in SNGs so i would also appreciate if experience player would comment that.

1.You are talking about stealing so blinds are at least 100/200. In that stage man if i have AJo i call 90% of times(only against those that really play few strong hands i would fold) and 88 85% of times. If you see them pushing with A4o which with higher blinds is normal sure you call with that.

2.Well that wouldn't be easy fold for me but was probably very good decision.

3.Man you have jacks how can you fold them that late stage. I can not lol since his pushing range is much loser and you this time just got unlucky.

Anyway in conclusion seems that your extra tight playing(you play like SSS player as i got impression) is so far working very well for you. Good to know

Good luck

Wow you are really results oriented, way to much in my opinion. A 25% ROI in turbo sng is quite high I think. I am now at 22% after about 200 sng and this is mostly because of an extremely good run.

You cannot fold the jacks there without an extreme read, you have 9 bb left.
Nash says you must call a push with 13.6%, 55+ A7s+ A8o+ KJs+ KQo. http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html
So JJ is never a fold here unless you have the read that he would push/fold here and only 2,5bb raises huge hands.

Maybe you could use the ICM trainer http://www.pokerstrategy.com/software/7/ to practice some of the situations without becoming to results oriented. Together with using the coachings it has helped me out alot.

Thanks for your comments Tinus, I'm after results for sure, mainly the 240$ bonus and getting better at my game.

I think my goals said 25% ITM, not ROI and I think it's realistic - I'd like a 25% ROI also, but those are top player numbers I know. My ROI at the moment is about 4%, but I don't have any kind of sample size to go by. My ITM is at 45% for my first session, after a less than stellar start. On full tilt I didn't do badly overall but played mostly 180 player SNG's!

I've reviewed my tourneys and only lost big pots when I pushed a good pair into a better hand, or was sucked out. That makes me feel pretty good even if I did lose out on a bubble.

I should probably be sleeping..one more article maybe it'll infuse my dreams and help me learn in my sleep. I dream about poker and airplanes.

Oops, my bad.

Very good that you can be happy when making good decisions when they still "costs" you money. I have sometimes great problems with that.

Sleep well and good luck on the tables!

Originally posted by slikec

Man i am rookie in SNGs so i would also appreciate if experience player would comment that.

1.You are talking about stealing so blinds are at least 100/200. In that stage man if i have AJo i call 90% of times(only against those that really play few strong hands i would fold) and 88 85% of times. If you see them pushing with A4o which with higher blinds is normal sure you call with that.

2.Well that wouldn't be easy fold for me but was probably very good decision.

3.Man you have jacks how can you fold them that late stage. I can not lol since his pushing range is much loser and you this time just got unlucky.

Anyway in conclusion seems that your extra tight playing(you play like SSS player as i got impression) is so far working very well for you. Good to know

Good luck

Thanks for your comments, they are all really helpful. Interesting - I guess you're right - I do play like a SSS player, maybe thanks to 15k hands playing like a robot for a week this month! SNG's seem so much more fun, and the leader board is another incentive. The prize pool and tourney ticket almost pay back your rake if you deserve it.

I had over 300 SNG's 41% ITM, isn't 25% too low? At least something like 30-35

You're talking about two different things. One about the ROI (return of investment) which you get when you add up your net winnings (what you have won minus what you paid as buyin or rake) and divide it everything you paid as a buyin or rake. Then multiply it by 100 so you get value in percent. The ROI should be a value somewhere between 30% for the 1,2 or 5$ SNGs to around 10% for the higher buyins.
ITM is not as important since it does not really show how successful you are. You can finish in the money 60% of the times and still make less money than somebody who gets in the money 30% of the times but always gets the first place when he does.

My ROI is 21% on the 10$ SNGs which is not the best but still decent IMO. I get ITM 45% of the times but as I said earlier this does not really matter that much.

Yes.. 25% is a low limit..but an easily achievable goal and a bit of deprecating humour when I wrote it. I think I can keep it over 35% or even more, but I'll be evaluating my finishing positions as I go. If it's skewed towards 3rd place then I'll know I have a weakness with three or 2 players left. If I enter a prolonged period with no cashes, I might have to switch to normal speed and give it a go.

The fast blind structure hurts everyone, but depending on your stack when the $400/800 blind hits you, it doesn't hurt everyone equally.. I notice some spots where I could have pushed late but didn't.. I'll post some of these hands - even if they're not so interesting, they might shed some light on my weaknesses.

I read somewhere that 30% is a minimum for being able to make money, considering that you could finish 3rd in 3 out of 10 tourneys.. that's $32 at a cost of $66. If you finish 2nd in 3/10, that's about even money. Winning just 3/10 is a good positive ROI.

Off the top of my head, at 45% ITM, finishing 2nd 9/20 would be about 50% ROI or so. Is there a chart or a graph of this somewhere - efffective placing/20 tourneys vs ROI? Anyone good with excel?

My average finishing position in the first session was around 4th place. Heads up is a different game almost, and I've got 4 second places to my one first in the session. I figure when you're 3rd with a short or med stack (as the case usually is) there's an additional challenge to overtake one and especially both stacks.

I imagine a typical distribution of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishes should be roughly skewed towards 3rd but I'd like to know what a successful SnG player with >10% ROI over many tourneys has for 1st/2nd/3rd place numbers. 10%/30%/60%? or do we need more like 25%/50%/25% - Maybe a better goal could be to win the tourney in 1 of every 4 cashes.

Originally posted by tinus82
Oops, my bad.

Very good that you can be happy when making good decisions when they still "costs" you money. I have sometimes great problems with that.

Sleep well and good luck on the tables!

Ah it's fine, looks like it started a decent discussion on ROI vs. ITM. I think reading Phil Gordon's section on bad beats in the little green book maybe said something about bad beats being an indication of a good game. After all, we have the best hand going in. The player that sucks out usually loses in the long run.

I also think getting stacked on a hand AA to AA is about the worst beat I've had, when AKo lost to AKo last night, I just had to laugh. When the A came on the river to give the suckout over my pair - I half expected it (ok I +3% expected it ;-)

One thing that has really helped is playing a lot of hands SSS. I've seen so many coin flips, all in calls etc from those sessions. Another thing that helps is BRM. With 90 buyins I can more easily handle bad beats, when the buyin doesn't seem as important relative to your bankroll, the beats don't seem as serious. Getting busted out with AQs on the button in one of the first tourneys to KK raise from MP was a wake up call more than anything. TPTK in a raised pot isn't always good if your top pair isn't AA. One of my weaknesses is having the underpair to a minraise or overbet from my opponent. I think I'm happier to check down hands now with the top pair in case of an overpair, trips or a straight against me. The flush is more obvious - the straight can be deceptive, the overpair should be readable?

I imagine a typical distribution of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishes should be roughly skewed towards 3rd but I'd like to know what a successful SnG player with >10% ROI over many tourneys has for 1st/2nd/3rd place numbers. 10%/30%/60%? or do we need more like 25%/50%/25% - Maybe a better goal could be to win the tourney in 1 of every 4 cashes.

10/30/60 would be rly bad, you would need more than 50% ITM, which is really hard

25/50/25 is better but also bad, 1rst place gets a lot more compared to 2nd place than 2nd to 3rd, it's 50/30/20 the distribution, so 20% for 1rst place than 2nd and only 10% more for 3rd to 2nd.

So i think you need to maybe gamble a little more with 3 players and try to win more HU than lose.

Maybe 45/25/30 would be nice

as an addendum, on titan poker you need a 40% 2nd place score to have a +ROI on the low stakes($1 and $2) SnG's.
not sure about the others.

In the 5 heads up I had in the session, I won one on the first hand, lost another because I was second place with a very short chip stack - the other three I was sucked out on with a better hand, or had to go all in with a poor hand due to low stacks..sample size is really small of course.

The revised goal is to improve final positions so that I win at least 25% of all cashes - and reduce number of second places. It seems going for 1st place instead of second place when you are third is riskier but has more rewards.

At the beginning stages I'm playing for 3rd place and making EV calls folds accordingly. That's why I'm folding AJ or 88 in position I think. When you calculate all the scenarios (push/fold, push/call/win push/call/lose) or (call/win call/lose) only calling with very tight range is profitable until 3 players are left.

I've read with 3 players left I should be stealing on the button and SB as often as possible - though I need to learn more about how to take advantage of the same tightness that I have in those stages.

If there's one big stack left and I'm one of the two smaller stacks then I'm pretty tight - not stealing with air on the button or even hands like K3o. My goal is to avoid the big stack and gang up on the other short stack. Sometimes my passive play here helps to even up the three stacks.

If there's 3 even stacks left I loosen up quite a bit - in these situations it seems much easier to scoop the blinds, and I usually end up with the most chips going heads up then.

If I'm the big stack, I'm inclined to let the small stacks fight it out - but of course I'm using good spots to resteal or even call when it seems right.

Heads up I need more experience with these SNG's. The game opens up so much, almost any hand plays, and all in raises with anything are possible.

I've played some heads up tourneys as practice - there's two main kinds of players it seems. The loose player and the tight player. People tend to switch between one or the other depending on who's the small stack. All ins from short stacks are harder for me to call, though I know I can just as well suck out with my J7o as his K4o. I need to understand more when to apply pressure, and when to coinflip the shortstack - I seem to be fairly good at heads up, but I admittedly am too tight in some spots.

Hey,
What buyin are you playing? How many at a time? Sets/consecutive?

I hate reading, so only read like 10 lines in this thread. You write alot, and you've only played 50 SnG's? Your writing about every SnG you play?

The bit I did read is about the finishing places. My stats over a 5000 game sample size are 33/33/33 roughly. I have played every limit upto the $55's, on and off.

You say as a big stack in a 3 handed game you let the shorties fight it out! Why? Bully, bully, bully. You say as a short stack you avoid big stacks, yeah? So as beginners dont you think they are scared to play you? Which means you have easy steals! To be sucessful you've got to bully from the bubble onwards.

Winning lots of little pots is the answer.

When you say there is 2 kinds of HU player, your pretty wrong. HU is totally different each time you play, and no 2 players are alike imo.

You also seem fixed with having good stats! Play at least 1000 games before you start evaluating the stats. By all means post them, but dont aim for certain figures, just play poker!

GL!
Stiev.

Originally posted by cannell555
Hey,
What buyin are you playing? How many at a time? Sets/consecutive?

I hate reading, so only read like 10 lines in this thread. You write alot, and you've only played 50 SnG's? Your writing about every SnG you play?

The bit I did read is about the finishing places. My stats over a 5000 game sample size are 33/33/33 roughly. I have played every limit upto the $55's, on and off.

You say as a big stack in a 3 handed game you let the shorties fight it out! Why? Bully, bully, bully. You say as a short stack you avoid big stacks, yeah? So as beginners dont you think they are scared to play you? Which means you have easy steals! To be sucessful you've got to bully from the bubble onwards.

Winning lots of little pots is the answer.

When you say there is 2 kinds of HU player, your pretty wrong. HU is totally different each time you play, and no 2 players are alike imo.

You also seem fixed with having good stats! Play at least 1000 games before you start evaluating the stats. By all means post them, but dont aim for certain figures, just play poker!

GL!
Stiev.

Kind of silly making comments when you admit you didn't read my posts - I guess this blog thread is more for me than you. I appreciate any constructive advice you might have anyway. In case you decide to read my reply, I'll answer your questions (again) I'll try to keep it short according to your attention span!

I'm playing 6$ buyins, 2 or 3 at a time to start in sets - enough for ~20 a day. As I wrote, I've played hundreds if not over a thousand SNG's, before now but not with BRM, and not with the help of pokerstrategy.com.

I do write a lot, if you were to read a bit, you'd see I'm commenting on hands that were interesting, played wrong etc.. that they happened over 18 SNG's for my first session was important enough to record - it helps my review. If i had stats on 300SNG's I'd certainly post them as I did for full tilt.. Hope I didn't offend you.

As I said this is a new strategy for me, I'm considering myself a beginner, even though I'm better than 18% ROI for SnG's lifetime, I make mistakes, have leaks and am hoping to learn and improve. My main goal here is to clear the $240 bonus playing SnG's according to strategy and BRM with help from pokerstrategy.com, coachings, videos, hand reviews and keeping a personal blog on the forum.

Lots of MTT experience probably is helping me to play a little different than optimal at bubble time for SNG's. Understanding what a good finish position distribution vs. ROI helps me to figure out how to play before and after the bubble. I won't just let the small stacks fight it out if I'm big stack - but at the same time I'm not going to double up someone just for the sake of it with 73o.

And types of heads up, I'm thinking preflop. Either they are pushing loose or somewhat tighter, and it seems to change whether the opponent is big stack or small stack.

Oh and thanks for posting your stats on my blog thread, I'm very impressed. 33/33/33 over 5000 SnG's means a lot (at what ITM%? I mean I can get the same distribution cashing in 3 out of 5000 tourneys...or are those not percentages and actual totals instead, in which case 99 cashes out of 5000 is a very -ve ROI)

Originally posted by bckdrflush

Oh and thanks for posting your stats on my blog thread, I'm very impressed. 33/33/33 over 5000 SnG's means a lot (at what ITM%? I mean I can get the same distribution cashing in 3 out of 5000 tourneys...or are those not percentages and actual totals instead, in which case 99 cashes out of 5000 is a very -ve ROI)

What? ITM % isn't very important tbh. My ROI on the $22's and $33's is 24% combined (over 700-800 games only). I moved upto the 55's, but only played about 50 games, so cant comment on them stats. The itm % is around 47-48%, but I dont see how this is relevant tbh.

Originally posted by cannell555

What? ITM % isn't very important tbh. My ROI on the $22's and $33's is 24% combined (over 700-800 games only). I moved upto the 55's, but only played about 50 games, so cant comment on them stats. The itm % is around 47-48%, but I dont see how this is relevant tbh.

ok, with stats like yours, you don't have to worry about ITM. I'd like to watch you play sometime if you don't mind, I'm sure I'm way too tight, but I'd be happy with 10% ROI, especially on a bonus quest.

I'm trying to settle on a strategy on how to play at the different stages of a tournament. If my ITM% is too low, say 30%, then I need a lot more 1st places than second and third places and have to loosen up a fair bit. If my ITM is really good, say 50%, then my tight play might result in poorer finishes as a tradeoff but my ROI will be ok, and variance will be smaller IMO.

In the best scenario I've got a high ITM% and a good distribution of 1st, 2nd and 3rd like you. One thing I'm having trouble with, is that almost every SNG coaching I've attended was a losing session, with very loose play from the coaches in my opinion. Even the (bronze/silver) videos show a lot of losing sessions - some embarrassingly so. It doesn't give me a lot of confidence in playing so loose..especially if I'm making a comfortable ROI by playing within my comfort level and cashing a lot (6 out of last 7 was a good finish)

I think I'd rather start out by cashing more and working on my late play as I go. I'm not really comfortable with big variance at the moment, and that's what I'm seeing on turbo SnG's played too loose. Once I'm comfortable that I'm making the money in a lot of games (I mostly am) I have to become more adept at the final 3 and heads up play..unfortunately I haven't seen a lot of these situations in the several SnG coachings I've attended lately. I've got a few articles to reread before my next session I think.