15$ turbo KO, AA 10/20

Hi!

I 3bet bigger pre. Our position is not great, we are playing lower stakes, you are inviting ppl to join a multiway pot, which is wrong with our hand.

Postflop-on the flop, you have 2 options-call or shove. Raising here is no good because you always give the right odds for a FD to come join and play perfectly against you. Same applies to other draws. I wouldn't feel very comfy shoving here given that there are 9x and 77 combos possible tbh. But if you want to raise, you need to raise all in. If we have to chose 1 of the 2 options, I chose to shove, although I believe we should strongly avoid situations like this.

In order to avoid situations like this, 3bet bigger preflop.
As played- I definitely fold turn.

Cheers!

Hello Kurrkabin,

I have a hard time understanding the shove you advise. I have the impression that we isolate ourselves against 9x hands. And it's a substantial overbet (around 2x).

What about betting something like 500. If Villain has a FD, the pot is now 1030 and he needs to call either 500 or 400. In both cases, he doesn't have direct odds. Even if Villain assumes that he can stack us off every time he hits on the turn, the implied odds are just enough to call. All in all, I have the impression that we let some room for Villain to shove his FD, TT, ...

Could you explain why you favor directly shoving over raising bigger?

Ha! I wanted to written the same things, you was faster. When we raise to 500 this guy has 35% odds- exacly amount to hit FD, but not including ICM tax, so these implied odds will be not correct to call, beside fact that normal probability to hit FD on turn is only 18%. But on the other hand next guy after somebody call has even better odds to call and play with draw. And finally when we raise that big I think that we can't fold on any card on next street because we will hard commited to pot.
Maybe this play can give us more value than just shove here, but push here is simple and of course always good here.

What is your plan if we raise to 500 and he ships?Fold /call? Raising to 500 commits us. I know it looks like a big overbet, but I will write down my thoughts on it.

Benefits of shipping:
-we get value from 7x-that might fold otherwise on the turn-he could be folding to an overcard and if the draws complete
-same with TT,JJ, (QQ) maybe even 88(they might stack off)
-we protect better against draws(and I believe they will call off with a FD-very often that FD will have an overcard or an some gutter and whatevs

-Draws usually do better than their equity share-just think about it-he's stacking off with any FD, but folding on the turn if his draw misses, then we miss value. What if he decides to turn a pair of 7s or T8 into a bluff on the river if the FD completes and we c/b the turn?
-one of them can have T8 and have good implied odds when he completes on the turn.

I just don't think a fish is folding a FD here to a ship here. And don't get me wrong, I am not in love with shipping tbh, it's a 4-way pot, we are deep.

But what if we get a call on our big raise, it could also be 9x... And I assume, we are not folding a non-spade turn-we are shoving the turn. I am thinking of maybe raising to 500 and folding to a lot of action. As fish will usually fear the FD(other draws) and shove.

So that doesn't then save us against 9x hands, but it makes the FDs and other draw's life better. It sucks to play AA 4-way pot. It truly does and I really want to stress(as I said in the first comment) that we need to 3bet bigger! The max we want to play is 3-way pot and best is HU.

I think calling the flop is also an option, I believe 9x will either raise flop or turn and I think a lot of peeps will play it fast on the flop as they fear the FD 4-way pot. So that's also an option and it could be actually better than shipping all in or raising.

It's not an easy spot as we are playing a 4-way pot. If we raise to 500 and fold to a lot of action...hmmm...it could be. If we perceive most players will play their 9x fast here(which I believe they will). But if our plan is to raise to 500 and call, then I def. prefer shipping for the reasons above. And then again, if we raise, we still face the prob on a blank turn vs 1-2 opponent as not all of them will ship their 9x.

Tricky spot if you ask me

I understand your way of thinking but I feel that such a strong line might still make fold many of the hands you identified. For example 88, 7x, some weak FD. I would consider the 500 raise as a "non-all-in all-in". So I would call a shove on the flop and would shove any turn but the 8s or the Ts.

So in short, I want to keep Villain's range as open as possible with that big raise/call line by fear of iso myself against 9x.

But indeed, tricky spot.

Could you give me a rule of thumb about when to use such overbets? I simply have never done that. I don't really clearly see when to use them without 'trapping myself' against better hands.

Big thanks kurrkabin for your additional reply. Well from these two options that you are prefer (call or shove) I definitely more like shove here. Though spot to take best decision. Now I think that fishes can call wider a shove because maybe they read this move as a weakness. That's right maybe after my raise and turn card f.e. K they can fold a lot of pp which mostly call push on flop.
Nah... For me is still pretty strange that big overbet here but your arguments are good and unless push is truly best here. In sure it is a most simple move here, every another might more complicated this hand on next streets.

You are welcome guys and hopefully my advises will help you.

As for when to overbet-rule of thumb is -if a raise commits your, better just shove. Here with a raise of 500 it's quite close.

As for when to overbet-imagine you 3bet pre 25bb effective deep, fish raise/flats and the flop comes 78Tss-you have AA no spade. The flop f.e. 1000ch and we are left each with 2000 chips. I will definitely overbet the flop with my hand against a fish-he's calling any draw, any pair and we give best protection for our hand.