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Game theorists crack poker

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Avataren
Joined: 28.04.2010

i beat snowie too over 30 days but as you know variance is good sometimes and bad sometimes. If i played exclusively this bot or for that matter ceph then you can't be sure that you will be the winner. assuming a bot does play its standard game 100% of the time and it does not make an error according to its playstyle and "gameplan" Im the only one who can make an error and the more errors i make the more chance the bot will have of being the winner longterm.

thats how the illegal bots at ipoker for example do. they play a certain game and its up to the fish to make the mistakes making the bot profitable.


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ZapOut
Joined: 03.08.2011

Those illegal bots are not automatized. You have to set up them how they play. And they will never change their play style as snowie does.
What i see how you can beat those perfect game bots is to mess up with their system.


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Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

There's no such thing as "messing up" Cepheus.

It plays Game Theory Optimal poker, that means you cannot adjust your game in any way shape or form to beat it long term the best you can do is breakeven against it.

This bot doesn't "learn" or adapt ranges etc, it has a set way to play it does not deviate from and that way of playing in not beatable or exploitable in any way shape or form, that's what "solved" means.

What Snowie is I've no idea, it seems to base it's suggestions on what is programmed into it as essentially "population" reads. Cepheus doesn't, it literally plays unexploitable Nash Equilibrium poker.

This idea came out before with the Sonia AI when it played vs Polaris (the original attempt at a GTO bot). Sonia's "adaption" against Polaris was to attempt to play GTO itself except in the few situations where it felt Polaris' GTO wasn't strong enough. Cepheus is Polaris cranked up to 11


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ZapOut
Joined: 03.08.2011

You are right. Because it is Limit HoldEm.
NoLimit will never be cracked, because it has no limits ! No bot will beat human.
I might be wrong, but snowie is the smartest bot out there right now for NL.


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Boomer2k10
Joined: 22.09.2010

You're definitely wrong on "No Limit will Never Be Cracked"

There is a Nash Equilibrium because it's a 2-player 0 sum game and, if anything, short stacked NL should be almost as easy as FL to solve because many of the decisions are push-fold and thus you can reduce the decision tree. Let's face it, Sub 10-BB Tournament poker is already near as makes no difference solved because Nash shoving ranges exist and have done for a while

In terms of deep stacked NL that's going to be a lot more complex but methods are constantly improving. 5 years ago everyone was beating the same drum that LHE would never be solved because there were too many variables so the UoA guys came up with a new way to make up for those variables in regret minimilisation and I imagine they could do something very similar to NL. Bet-sizing isn't insurmountable as many of the Poker AI competitors have shown you can defend vs many different bets sizes with just a few.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see 40bb- NLHE HUHU solved in the next 2-3 years and 100bb HUHU about 5 years or so after that and it'll be a long time before that where bots can beat the world's best players.

Polaris could beat the best in the world 8 years before Cepheus, the same will be true for NL bots

Additionally I'm not even sure Snowie's the best bot out there,according to the 2014 pokerAI competition that honour belongs to Tartanian7

"Team Name: Tartanian
Team Members: Noam Brown, Sam Ganzfried, Tuomas Sandholm
Affiliation: Carnegie Mellon University
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Non-dynamic Agent
Technique: One/Two Paragraph Summary of Technique:

Tartanian7 plays an approximate Nash equilibrium strategy that was computed on Pittsburgh's shared-memory supercomputer, which has a cache coherent Non-Uniform Memory Access (ccNUMA) architecture. We developed a new abstraction algorithm and a new equilibrium-finding algorithm that enabled us to perform a massive equilibrium computation on this architecture.

The abstraction algorithm first clusters public flop boards, assigning each cluster to a blade on the supercomputer. These public clusters are computed by clustering using a distance function based on how often our abstraction from last year grouped hands together on the flop with different sets of public cards. Within each cluster, the algorithm then buckets the flop, turn, and river hands that are possible given one of the public flops in the cluster, using an imperfect-recall abstraction algorithm. We did not perform any abstraction for the preflop round.

Our equilibrium-finding algorithm is a modified version of external-sampling MCCFR. It samples one pair of preflop hands per iteration. For the postflop, each blade samples community cards from its public cluster and performs MCCFR in parallel. The samples are weighted to remove bias.

Our agent also uses a novel reverse mapping technique that compensates for the failure of CFR to fully converge and to possibly overfit the strategies to the abstraction."

Although that said it plays incredibly wierdly atm and it definitely does some things wrong (I think it checked back a sf at one point...wierd AIs) and it looks completely insane to someone who's learned the "human" way of play NLHE but it's definitely a first step and would probably easily kill small stakes NLHU in it's current state so we'll see.


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jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009

There's a persistent confusion between what you can do for two player zero sum games and other games. You might be interested in what I wrote here

http://www.modernpokereducation.com/material.html

Bonus maths 5 is the one about multiplayer games.

You might also be interested in https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=324733


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jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009

There's an interview here. I'm going to listen to it on my way home from work, but it's bound to be interesting.

http://www.thinkingpoker.net/2015/01/episode-110-the-computer-poker-research-group-solves-hulhe/


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limit poker is for little children and old ladies
which are you ??


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is there such a thing as legal bots??


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jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009

Originally posted by pokerdyke
limit poker is for little children and old ladies
which are you ??


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Avataren
Joined: 28.04.2010

Originally posted by pokerdyke
limit poker is for little children and old ladies
which are you ??

im a little child. Yet im still better at poker than you since im actually a winner :) you should jump on my tables and lets see whos the better one at the game for old ladies and little children.


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Avataren
Joined: 28.04.2010

Originally posted by pokerdyke
is there such a thing as legal bots??

yep there is. just not allowed to play vs people for real money or playmoney. Though ipoker does allow bots aka they dont care to ban them :P


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Originally posted by pokerdyke
limit poker is for little children and old ladies
which are you ??

Maybe you are underestimating both woman and small children.


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zereles11
Joined: 27.03.2013

fixed limit 6-max is already full of collusion , if they put bots on heads up is the end...


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Avataren
Joined: 28.04.2010

Originally posted by zereles11
fixed limit 6-max is already full of collusion , if they put bots on heads up is the end...

look at ipoker. there is a bot at T/20c HU or was it 2c/4c that has earned over 5000 dollars :P there are already bots at HU and 6max on ipoker. Luckily we don't see any on PokerStars as they actually care to ban them.


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sorry lady....im not stupid enough to put money into a game when the dealer is 10000 miles away
good luck


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redskwerl
Joined: 04.03.2008

Originally posted by pokerdyke
sorry lady....im not stupid enough to put money into a game when the dealer is 10000 miles away

literally wat


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Avataren
Joined: 28.04.2010

redskwerl - if you noticed pokerdyke's 5 posts they have all been for trolling or giving miserable advice. I suspect that account has only been created to troll. So don't worry about him :) Just get someone to ban him. I already reported 3 of his posts


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