NL10 250bbs deep lost my stack

KQs should be a fold pre imo. Even if hes drunk it just doesn't play well OOP, deep and bloated pot. It's very rare you will make a hand you can call down happily.

x/r flop is a mistake imo. Just take the pot odds with good implieds. What does a crazy guy bet 3/4 pot then fold? Turn bet also a mistake for the exact reason of what happens here.

What you can do to prevent this kind of thing, is if he's just putting in a 4x 3bet everytime, just minraise with hands that you want to call 3bets with. That way he either can't make it as big, or he has to put up 1.2 to win 20c which is a terrible risk/reward ratio.

Are you sure he's not 3betting you because you fold too often to 3bets?

It's an easy call pre. I would just x/c the flop. If the turn is a K/Q x/c again, x/r on a heart. If you miss the turn and he doesn't barrel you can bluff the river to fold out his A highs.

Do we have any stats/info on the villain? Just saying he's drunk probably isn't enough, or it maybe is. Either way, drunk or just a fish he's probably not folding anything. And just saying in general, when making such a semi-bluff on turn, you usually want to make it bigger, because if you know you're gonna have to call it off anyway, try to increase your fold equity at least. And I'm talking in general, not necessarily this hand.

I don't mind calling the 3bet even out of position, it's a great hand against a fish. The problem with your line imo is, that the best hand you could hope he has, is something like JhTh, Jh9h (I was trying to put in his range some other FD's, but even 9h7h, 7h6h is far ahead on the turn)but there are a ton of other hands that have you beat and he's not going to fold, probably even A-high FD's. I hope you didn't try to make him fold something like KK here, because if you thought he was drunk or he was playing spewy, there is no way he's folding that.

If he was being overly aggressive, just let him be aggressive. Meaning that you play a hand passively and just extract value out of him when you have a pair of queens with K kicker for example. 250bb is a pretty huge stack, I mean against a solid reg I wouldn't want to get it all in even with 2nd nut flush probably, or I would at least be very hesitant. Vs fish it's different obviously, because they can really spew. So I think against a monkey aggressive player like this you should keep the pot small if you don't have anything, because he just isn't going to fold and when you have at least a top pair, you can extract something out of him.

I've done this kind of plays myself in the past and I know it hurts like hell afterwards, especially when you know the villain is some mega fish. Don't worry even a far better players then us make mistakes like this, so just learn from this and move on. It's great when you see such a draw with overcards and you start counting your outs in the head and thinking about your equity etc. The thing is though, you can't fall in love with a hand like that, especially with 250bb stacks and against a drunk fish. While you're thinking all these things about his ranges and all, he's just sitting there saying to himself: I have 98, top pair, I'm gonna call. And there goes your fold equity down the toilet, and you're just left with 34% pot equity. It's ok to be passive against a super aggressive player, use that against him. Move on and keep up the good fight.

Originally posted by Anomic
Are you sure he's not 3betting you because you fold too often to 3bets?

It's an easy call pre.

Because he "might be drunk"? There is basically no information. Do you call 4x 3bets oop vs unknowns? Vs regs? And then what? x/f every time we miss? Or spaz out by x/r air? Call down 3 streets with 1 pair, good kicker? imo KQs plays terribly in massive OOP 3bet pot unless you have reads on villain. Here we do not. And no you can't use the 73s showdown as info. This is after the fact and therefore irrelevant.

I can't believe you would advocate KQs being an easy call (with no explanation why either) to a guy who just shipped in 260bb with like 20% equity. If we have some stats on this guy and he look like crazy spewer (which we can conclude yes AFTER AND ONLY AFTER the hand with info guy gave us) then KQs becomes a call. Otherwise its just a spot where you never get in a decent amount of money with the best hand. Have a hard time both when you hit and when you miss.

If you have a sound postflop plan of how to play this profitably postflop in the given scenario I'd of course be delighted to read it. But imo, folding till he has more info is going to save a lot of money, especially when postflop lines like this are taken.

Really bad play.Turn call in shove is just terrible,why?Gabling or play poker?
Fold pre and all be good.

Originally posted by Mon3yMaChin3
Really bad play.Turn call in shove is just terrible,why?Gabling or play poker?
Fold pre and all be good.

Turn call is not terrible. Hero gets pot odds of 22% and K/Q may be live. Even if villain has 7x there are chop possibilities, so just a flush draw is enough to call and breakeven imo even if K/Q is not live. But they might be, depending on reads vs villain. The problem is raising flop made pot too big, and betting turn meant there was too much in pot to fold to raise.

consider not playing deep

Originally posted by Tomaloc
consider not playing deep

this!!! will really help you in longrun

I have an idea CustardKid, why not suggest a video or/and an article or two from our magnificent coaches for deep stacks play Feedback Board, it seems to be a problem area generally at micros. It's worth a try.

Unfortuantely I couldn't find any relevant videos for you this time round.

Deepstack poker is a whole new thought process and can - and as you have seen will - cost you far too much if you are indecisive or inexperienced at it.

Regards,

Mal.

Originally posted by Tomaloc
consider not playing deep

This,
As i say i never call shove in turn for only 22%

thanks for all the advice, but as for considering not playing deep that's not an option for me I want master it and beet it Ive already learned from this mistake ive made it twice now and wont be making it again, I don't fold to much to guys who 3bet if there stat is high I usually 4bet bluff guys who fold to 4 bets call with monsters, or 4bet monsters to guys ho don't fold to 4bets and fold bluffs I like to call ip with hands I think dominate there range, i don't think calling pre with this hand is a mistake the stacks are pretty deep against this guy, he had a 3% 3 bet stat witch ment i had massive implied odds if he had AA and couldn't fold, the mistake is forgetting on the flop the range i assigned him and trying to bluff him on the flop when like metza said i had good implied odds to call, but after i raised the flop the 4 card straight was a good card for me to bluff him off an over pair witch is why i bet the turn and called all in because, his raise now indicates a 7x i guess i have 10 outs but the size of the pot after putting half my stack in i felt was to big for my bankroll to fold and worth the risk even though i wasn't quite getting enough odds, (i sat with $5), i clearly tilted during this hand and played terrible

Originally posted by metza
Do you call 4x 3bets oop vs unknowns? Vs regs? And then what? x/f every time we miss? Or spaz out by x/r air? Call down 3 streets with 1 pair, good kicker?

Postflop the plan is to play poker, you know.... Stop using stupid premade bullshit reasons without understanding them "never call 3bet oop" "never fold KK preflop" and any other shit including the word "never".

Originally posted by metza
imo KQs plays terribly in massive OOP 3bet pot unless you have reads on villain.

It's not a massive oop 3-bet pot. It's a oop 3-bet pot with still a good SPR. Huge difference.
If I can get it in against a fish for 250bb (w/ flush), I'm really happy. If you're good, bb/100 250bb deep > bb/100 100bb deep.

Originally posted by metza
If you have a sound postflop plan of how to play this profitably postflop in the given scenario I'd of course be delighted to read it. But imo, folding till he has more info is going to save a lot of money, especially when postflop lines like this are taken.

Again, our plan is TO PLAY POKER. Poker isn't just about open raising + c.betting. You need to learn to play different lines if you want to win money at this game.

XC,XC,XC or XC,X,B or X,B,B is a decent line on Kxx, Qxx. If you have draws, you can XR,B,B or XC,XR,B or something else depending on your reads. You're rarely going to play for 250bb anyway.

Originally posted by metza
But imo, folding till he has more info is going to save a lot of money, especially when postflop lines like this are taken.

That's the worst reason not to call. How are you ever going to learn anything if you stay in your comfort zone and never try anything different.

Originally posted by CustardKid
thanks for all the advice, but as for considering not playing deep that's not an option for me I want master it and beet it Ive already learned from this mistake ive made it twice now and wont be making it again,

Well said, don't listen to metza.

Originally posted by metza
If we have some stats on this guy and he look like crazy spewer (which we can conclude yes AFTER AND ONLY AFTER the hand with info guy gave us) then KQs becomes a call

And no you can't use the 73s showdown as info. This is after the fact and therefore irrelevant.

And by "we" you mean we? OP obviously has played for a while on this table. So did Villain. He should have a few reads on how he managed to get 500bb deep. Your point is horrible.

Originally posted by metza
Otherwise its just a spot where you never get in a decent amount of money with the best hand. Have a hard time both when you hit and when you miss.

LOL.

Wtf is your problem? If you have disagreement with something I say, is it possible for you to say it, but without being an asshole? If so, please do.

If the guy provide no info on villain, that is the information I have to go off. Flatting 12bb OOP with KQs vs unknown imo is a mistake. You can probably manage it with your super sick, deep postflop strategy but for the rest of us mere mortals its probably not profitable.

Couldn't help but notice you suggest x/r b b with draws vs fish??? So basically almost the same line as this hand?? I think you're on to something here

Originally posted by metza
Wtf is your problem? If you have disagreement with something I say, is it possible for you to say it, but without being an asshole? If so, please do.

I will at your first valid rational argument.

Originally posted by metza
You can probably manage it with your super sick, deep postflop strategy

No sick strategy needed. Just basic poker lines. A fish is 500bb deep and you're 250bb deep? GO PLAY HIM. That's where the money is. And if you suck at playing deep, then either leave when >200bb deep your whole life, or start learning now while you're still playing nl10.
What hands you want to play that deep? Hands with good implied odds. AA sucks for playing deep because you get overpair with this hand and you don't want to stack off 200bb with overpaire. So you have to build the biggest pot preflop with that hand when deep. And maybe some moron is going to broke 200bb preflop with KK/QQ.
AK is awesome because you get nuts like straight or flush. Just overbet your way to 400bb.
KQ is also good but you have to be careful of Axs. But apparently Villain plays 73s so you must have seen some showdowns with retarded hands from him before (hence why OP said "he's drunk"). Unless you played with your eyes closed.
22+ and suited connector are also good, but usually you only beat like TPTK or DP and you don't get the nuts set or nuts straight or nuts flush. Unless Villain is stacking off like an idiot postflop with TP or DP, you can't really play for your stack.

Originally posted by metza
Couldn't help but notice you suggest x/r b b with draws vs fish???

You need glasses bro.

Btw, XR draws vs. fish isn't bad. It's XR draws vs. calling station that's bad. Fish have a fold button on their software too.

Originally posted by metza
Couldn't help but notice you suggest x/r b b with draws vs fish???

Originally posted by Crrrrrrr
You need glasses bro.

Originally posted by Crrrrrrr
If you have draws, you can XR,B,B

Incidentally, I do need glasses, my eyesight is not so good :f_biggrin:. But doesn't change the fact that is exactly what you said.

I don't disagree with you we should play KQs oop deep vs whale.

What I am saying that you don't seem to get, is even though villain might have reads on this guy, if he don't post them they are useless to people evaluating. "Might be drunk" is not legit info.

When I analyze hand, I go off the concrete information given, there is no concrete information to show this guy is whale.

Except for 73s showdown. However I do not consider the results of the hand in question, because the point of analysing a hand is to help with future real-time decisions. I don't know if you ever used the Hand Evals when they were active and done by coaches, but they always suggest hiding the results of the hand. Using the results of what was a current hand, retroactively to get information is not a valid method for anyone except a superuser.

Have a good day and I hope sometime you will overcome whatever issues you have that make you feel the need to constantly insult people to feel better about yourself.