KK facing AI OTF

Hero folds. No need to figure out if he is bluffing. He might, but the check-raise is too big to be called with your hand.

Flop is a fold. I think you could shove pre.

In my vision, you always have to go to all in on flop with this hand.

Originally posted by Dabobs
In my vision, you always have to go to all in on flop with this hand.

You have a weird vision. MP 4bets us, his range is something like QQ+,AK maybe some combos of JJ, AJ and AQ if he 4bets light. Vs that kind of range we have 60% and we can shove pre. When he check raises OTF he has JJ+, AKs (with BDFD), in this case we have less than 20%.

We are both deep and villain x/r shoves so most likely it is sets or AA.

Why do you want to go all-in on this flop?

If we are 3 betting pre, I like to go all the way.
OTF we can fold safely.

Originally posted by Dabobs
In my vision, you always have to go to all in on flop with this hand.

Mmmm, not every time, not on every flop... Here we are a bit deepand I do not like going AI with just an overpair.

Originally posted by xavez0
My Thoughts: 4bet in NL2 Zoom is almost aways KK or AA, sometimes QQ or some AK. OTF, he either has a Q set, AA or he is bluffing a gutshot with AK right? I thought i would be beaten most of the times so i just folded. Opinions?

If hero puts villain on such a range, what is the use of the bet on the flop?
Hero cannot protect his hand against this range with a bet.
I do not see how hero can gain value from a flopbet.
I do not see how the flopbet could make villain fold his better hands.

Originally posted by wimNP
If hero puts villain on such a range, what is the use of the bet on the flop?
Hero cannot protect his hand against this range with a bet.
I do not see how hero can gain value from a flopbet.
I do not see how the flopbet could make villain fold his better hands.

Yea it makes sense when i stop to think, but he tricked me with his check OTF, should have checked and maybe catch a lucky K on the turn.

Originally posted by YohanN7
Hero folds. No need to figure out if he is bluffing. He might, but the check-raise is too big to be called with your hand.

NL2 Zoom 4b is either super strong or air, without reads, easy fold on the flop.

I think with KK you can get more value pre-flop and stick it in. However, as played, I would have folded OTF here as well.

Why do you want to go all-in on this flop?

I am sorry. I wanted to write pre-flop instead flop.

Really hard to fold KK, but with the check raise on the flop and the size of the bet, folding is the right move in my opinion.

Im gonna have a look at my database when im back home. Im under the impression that whenever i manage to get opp all-in preflop holding KK, i actually isolate myself against everything thats not AA or KK, and since im holding 2 K's, its more likely to be AA.
Maybe my mind is tricking me with bad memories, but im sure i had lot's of KK vs AA when i managed to get all-in PF. I even remember one day when it happened twice, and twice i hit a K on the board lol.
Ill be back with some stats and edit this post.

It depends on your and villain's positions... vs some positions you will face AA, KK more frequently.

Originally posted by xavez0
Im gonna have a look at my database when im back home. Im under the impression that whenever i manage to get opp all-in preflop holding KK, i actually isolate myself against everything thats not AA or KK, and since im holding 2 K's, its more likely to be AA.
Maybe my mind is tricking me with bad memories, but im sure i had lot's of KK vs AA when i managed to get all-in PF. I even remember one day when it happened twice, and twice i hit a K on the board lol.
Ill be back with some stats and edit this post.

I looked at mine too, just out of curiosity. Holecards KK and all-in pre -> 31 hands 2771bb/100 winrate.
Villain had:
7x AA
5x JJ
4x AKo
2x AQo,AQs,TT
1x J9o,AJo,AJs,T3o,A9o,J8o,66,QJs,KK

You were talking about having AAvKK when you get it in OOP. Well I filtered out also when I'm OOP -> 2/14 were aces. Winrate 1743bb/100.

I think hisopinion is based on the psychological feature ofour brain to remember the bad cases...

Thanks la55i! What limit is that data from? Im curious because i want to compare it to my NL2 data, considering yours is from a higher limit. Gonna be home in a few hours.

Originally posted by xavez0
Thanks la55i! What limit is that data from? Im curious because i want to compare it to my NL2 data, considering yours is from a higher limit. Gonna be home in a few hours.

120k hands @ NL2,NL5,NL10 .. 80k hands of those were from NL2 zoom.

Ok here are my stats, mainly NL2 Zoom, one NL5 Zoom and some Regular NL2.

15 Hands all-in preflop holding KK
7x AA
2x TT
1x 44, AQo, AKo, Q8o, AJs

Thats for both when i called the all-in, and when i raised all-in and opponent called.
Now considering I raised all-in and opponent calls:

10 Hands holding KK, raising all-in pre-flop and getting called
6x AA
1x QQ, TT, AKo, 44

Theres a big difference between getting called, and calling the all-in. Of 10 Hands, 6 were against AA.
My sample size is small, so of course some variance is expected.

Anyway, i dont think its enough to say you shouldnt be happy to raise all-in PF holding KK, right?