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zoom BvB raiseflop and barrel

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tamamo
Joined: 20.10.2010

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $25 (100 bb)
Hero (BB): $25 (100 bb)
UTG: $31.02 (124.1 bb)
MP: $25.34 (101.4 bb)
CO: $26.25 (105 bb)
BTN: $55.03 (220.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6 7
4 folds, SB raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($1) 4 5 T (2 players)
SB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.30, SB calls $1.55

Turn: ($5.60) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50

River: ($12.60) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Results: $12.60 pot ($0.57 rake)
Final Board: 4 5 T 4 6
SB showed 9 T and won $12.03 ($5.73 net)
Hero mucked 6 7 and lost (-$6.30 net)

I think flop and turn are standard line, I have nuts OESD great hand for bluff.
if I don't hit 6 on the river probably I would bluff.
but actually, this hand is not SDV hand. beat only draw hands which I blocked.
Should I continue river?


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19 replies
Mandator
Joined: 02.02.2008

Any stats or info of the villain ? Against unknown I would have played like you.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

I prefer the conservative style and just call flop.


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pisiattu
Joined: 01.04.2010

I prefer 3bet pre, but it is close imho, as played call flop, as played check back turn, as played with 6 hero have redic showdown value i don t know if we often win here


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Preflop we have to call only 1bb and we have position so I guess calling is ok but I prefer 3betting.
I'm not sure about flop raise. Basically it is not that bad to do so but maybe your hand and the flop are not optimal for that. Maybe it would be better if you had BDFD in addition to your OESD. I might just call here.
Turn I would barrel usually only if we pick up some extra equity, so this would be a check for me.
As played villain probably has something and you probably have no showdown value. So imo your only option to win this hand is to bet again OTR.


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

If you bluff flop at all (and you should, you must in poker above playmoney), this is the ideal hand because it is 7 high and has outs. Whether to barrel river as well is up to you and your opponents tendencies. Without the 6♦: hitting, I am barreling river. Now we beat at least a couple of hands (not too many though:)). The river card basically functions as a randomizer for our bluffs. Ignoring it may lead to over-bluffing. But reads override.


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robin261187
Joined: 04.01.2011

Pre flop I would have played the same.

On the flop, since I only called pre flop, I would call too. But I think you can bluff here sometimes.

If you bet the flop, you have to continue the turn.

On the river I think we can see a free showdown with our pair. If we didn't hit the 6, we could bluff again.


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Dadramel
Joined: 10.08.2014

The 4 on the turn is a reason not to bet.


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tamamo
Joined: 20.10.2010

this opponent is almost unknown.

to favor flop caller
which range do you raise on the flop?

I don't have many raising range here.
44,(3combo) 55(3),nuts OESD noBDFD(13).
if villain bet/fold wide
expand some GS and AhiBDFD+BDSD

turn
I have 8outs.(although it is a little discount)
if I bluffraise GS or BDFD, I wouldn't continue turn without improve.
but I think this hand has still enough equity to semibluff.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

Originally posted by la55i
Preflop we have to call only 1bb and we have position so I guess calling is ok but I prefer 3betting.
I'm not sure about flop raise. Basically it is not that bad to do so but maybe your hand and the flop are not optimal for that. Maybe it would be better if you had BDFD in addition to your OESD. I might just call here.
Turn I would barrel usually only if we pick up some extra equity, so this would be a check for me.
As played villain probably has something and you probably have no showdown value. So imo your only option to win this hand is to bet again OTR.

Yeah, agree w most of ur thinking on the streets. Still, if villain probably has something OTR, is he able to fold those hands?
Bet again OTR just because is the only way to win is not the right thinking when bluffing.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

That is a good point. But still I think we can exclude some sets and 2 pair since villain might have re-raised those or raised turn. And some villains will donk river with a strong hand. Villain has something, that is almost sure, but he still has some draws (maybe he has 67 too), he has mid pairs and some Tx (like he had here).
So the question is, do we want to check behind and lose the pot almost 100% sure or do we want to bluff and hope he has enough bad hands in his range. If we bet 75% of the pot for example we have to win 43% of the time to break even.


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Afulibador
Joined: 21.08.2009

If we conclude that great hands are excluded, we have to get a feeling of how our image goes, and how often he is willing to pay w those medium strength showdown hands. Ends up that if we have a fair image we could make these 43% needed, depending on villain.


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poompah
Joined: 26.12.2011

La55i you win the prize for the most non-committal and fluffy nonsense I have seen in a long time -- but then I have not been here for a long time due to said non-committal and fluffy nonsense...

I guess calling is ok...
I prefer 3betting...
I'm not sure about flop raise...
maybe your hand and the flop are not optimal...
Maybe it would be better if...
I might just call...
Turn I would barrel usually...
villain probably has something...
you probably have...

Taking aggressive lines with no concept of value or a read-based plan is losing poker and its not even close.
If you want to talk *optimal* lines then explain how you decide what is optimal. Where is the value here?

Your thinking seems to be Isildur-fanboy *let's out-muscle and bluff every chance we get * for what? LOLZ? Not for money -- not without understanding where the money is coming from.

Versus a weak player that wont fold hands like T9o oop -- 3B worse trash is setting money on fire. Duh! Your strategy versus a player such as this is spectacularly obvious...and its VERY EASY to take their money.

Play small pots/cheaply in position with playable but-not-great hands. Make your money post-flop when you have something or villain has nothing.
Expand your VALUE 3B range so you can dominate his trash-calls.
If you want to catch some extra bucks over and above simply playing well -- be aware of the meta-game especially with the Jesus seat on this player.

Making money in spots like this is SO EASY -- but if you have no patience to pick your spots and understand how to create value post-flop then no amount of theory can help you.
The new fish are the aggro-monkey spewtards who raise and barrel trash because its easier than thinking about ranges and value...


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Interesting post.. You wrote a wall of text just because I said 3bet pre flop?

1. ppl fold too much to 3bets so overall 3betting a lot is +EV at the micros
2. this is a common sizing for guys who steal a lot
3. we do not have any info on villain so we do not know he is a weak player who won't fold T9o here, or a regular who is stealing a lot but folding a lot vs 3bets
4. expanding value 3bet range instead of having a polarized range will lead to domination issues
5. have you figured out how often we will hit on the flop and how we are playing after that?

Respectfully, if someones post is full of nonsense it is yours. You have an opinion, I have an opinion. If you can't provide any calculations about this spot or analysis from a large hand sample etc.. I think we have to agree to disagree :)


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tamamo
Joined: 20.10.2010

I think bluff 3bet range needs playability low SPRpot or high card equity even BvBIP.
I prefer something like A5o,K2o,Q5o,J4s high card+lag type hands.
when we 3b 76o and called, our equity realization advantage is not so helpful.

preferably, I want to focus on flop raise range and river bet discussion.
this villain is unknown.
I want to know common line assuming this stakes population tendency.

To be honest, I'm not good at English.
When you can write an idea simply, it's a great help.


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DirtyBasementKid
Joined: 12.08.2015

Regarding the question about continuing the river: I don't think that it is a good idea to continue the river. He has a range advantage in my opinion, and I don't think he would be folding here. The 4 on the turn reduce your value combos, and the bluff to value ratio becomes too unbalanced: you have something like 9 combos of value hands (44, 55, TT, 45s) and 16 combos of 65 (suited and offsuit combos), so the numbers speaks for itself


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Preflop versus bad player (or even average):

To raise preflop, you must really assess yourself to be truly, truly horrible postflop. We get pot odds of 3.5:1 to just call. It is 1 bb to call and stacks are full. We have position on all streets and can make superior decisions. The worse the player in SB is, the more superior calling becomes. It is true that 3-betting has +EV against certain players, but if you think about it, if villain folds slightly to much, how much is that EV? It is maybe 10% of the current pot. This evaluates to 0.35 bb. You want him to make the wrong decision on the big streets, turn and river. If he makes the corresponding 10% mistake there for a 20 bb bet, then the EV is 2 bb. It is easier for him to make these mistakes postflop (because playing postflop OOP is hard) than preflop.

This particular hand illustrates this concept very well. We made no mistake (at least not a blatant one). Villain made a huge mistake in calling turn, maybe calling flop was a mistake as well. Perhaps the next time we aren't bluffing. We can then expect up to 3 streets of value against villain holding K9o with top pair. You really don't want such a player to fold preflop, even if you get the 3.5 bb when he folds. (With deep stacks, this is actually true. You could pay the guy 3.b bb just in order to get to play a pot with him IP.)


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poompah
Joined: 26.12.2011

A *wall* of words. Well maybe the age of discussion is dead -- you sound like the army of *Twitter* boys that do not want ot have to read anything longer than 2 lines of text. Sure -- thats a great way to no only think superficially about poker -- its also a way to be superficial about life too! Good job. What are you on a forum for if you cannot cope with a decent length reply? Why not just move over to the many Twitter poker groups and engage there -- should be nice and short -- just not very deep.


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poompah
Joined: 26.12.2011

You wrote a wall of text just because I said 3bet pre flop?

I did not post solely because you wrote to 3-bet??!! I posted because what you wrote was fluffy, weak and utterly ambiguous. It would have applied if you had said *flat call* for the same reasons. Your post was peppered with *maybes* and *perhaps*. I think that is startlingly obvious ... so much so I am stunned you missed this point. It is about the complete lack of conviction in your reply ... which of course looks like you are unsure and indecisive.

Clear enough?

. ppl fold too much to 3bets so overall 3betting a lot is +EV at the micros

*People* do not fold too much -- players fold too much. And a lot of players 3B garbage and get themselves into awful spots so they can have a higher 3B % and have the kind of *stats* to brag about LOL.
Grouping everyone together under one title of *people* is hardly a sound basis for strategy! Is your game really so generalized you cannot think of specific spots or player types?? Its really not hard to identify players even with small amounts of info -- simply because certain behaviors are very indicative. You know this already -- but seem reluctant to get on board with it. PS: I have seen you play on Stars La55i so I know what you do at the tables...

A more accurate/useful answer might be:

There are a lot of weaker players at these limits who only play on with the nuts or near-nuts when facing a 3-bet -- so identifying these players and 3-betting them with a wider range can be insanely profitable.

Perhaps instead of defending yourself at all costs you can realize lame justifications teach nothing about poker. This explanation encourages players to identify and target weaker players that fold too much, it makes them think about other players as well -- because they are not all *people* -- some of them are regs, some are nits who only open the best hands, some wont fold and some will. Knowing the difference is what creats big win rates -- not bland homogenized *standard* responses to *people*. Monkeys clicking buttons...

Your advice is almost totally blind. You group everyone together and justify your line on the basis that *on average* it will be a better play. Do you really play against an amorphous blob of *players* that you use the same lines against regardless? You are an intelligent guy -- explain why one line is better than another -- and how that affects post-flop play. No maybe don't -- I like your posts! They keep everyone in the dark...


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poompah
Joined: 26.12.2011

2. this is a common sizing for guys who steal a lot

3. we do not have any info on villain so we do not know he is a weak player who won't fold T9o here, or a regular who is stealing a lot but folding a lot vs 3bets

You contradict yourself completely. Either you have a read or you don't?!!
OK lets assume not and the player is unknown. Then we fall back on your *general* line of 3-betting wide because *people* fold too much and this player is betting like he is stealing. So why are you not saying this is your original post -- why is it all *probably* and *maybe*. Either you are saying you have a read and take line X or you have no read and you use line Y.
This should be clear -- your strategy should be defined and the reasons for it -- so there is no *maybe* or *perhaps*. If there are options -- they should be defined. Strategic thinking becomes a PLAN. No plan and you are going to struggle.

How about saying:

I 3-bet here because I expect my opponent to fold too much to 3-bets. I have position and a hand that has good playability post-flop. My plan is to take down the pot pre-flop, fold to a 4-bet or play on post-flop if I have reasonable equity. Overall though, I expect to make enough through getting him to fold to make this action immediately profitable.

THAT is a strategy.

Go check your Poker database and see what the % fold the 3-bets is in spots like this. You may find it is not what you think, or you may be right. But if you do not define your strategy for spots like this then you make your game harder, your thinking woolly and end up making feeble posts like your original reply.

4. expanding value 3bet range instead of having a polarized range will lead to domination issues

This statement on its own demonstrates you do not understand 3-betting theory AT ALL. If your opponent is raising T9o here -- then you can certainly widen your 3bet range without worrying about *domination issues*. This is a point you would only raise if you did not understand why you would use a polarized range versus a value/merged range.
If you think people are folding too much to 3b then use a more polarized range to include bluffs and call with your playable-but-not-super-strong hands and play poker post-flop. Most money is made post-flop in case you had not noticed...
Use a more merged range is they start calling your bluffs and playing hands like 2nd/3rd pair plus weak-kicker to showdown (quite often in blind wars).

5. have you figured out how often we will hit on the flop and how we are playing after that?

Have you? Why do you not provide this information yourself in your OP?

If you can't provide any calculations about this spot or analysis from a large hand sample etc.. I think we have to agree to disagree :)

You don't need calculations in this spot to create a workable strategy. What is needed here -- at this level -- is an understanding of reasons to do things -- not precise mathematically defined ranges designed to eek out a small 0.1BB/100 extra edge against solid opponents. Sure do the math if you want -- but its already been done and the strategy is out there -- much of it is self-evident to even the partially-educated micros players.
Such things as perceived versus actual ranges, playability and polarized/merged ranges are good to know as they deepen understanding and help us create easily implementable strategy based on observed tendencies -- but its simply not necessary to delve deeply into them here. What is better is clear, unambiguous lines with solid reasoning behind them.
In other words it makes poker simpler to play.

It is true that fast poker we have less reads to go on -- but not so much that we play only a *general* fuzzy strategy in all spots. There are plenty of times you will see the same players -- even on Pokerstars micros zoom tables the typical player pool is in the 700 or so range and on other sites it is significantly less.


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