Two pair on river against shove from villian

This is a pretty loose open from you here... Fold preflop.

Your postflop play is not ok. Your river play does not make sense and the call of the raise is pouring money into a hole....
When you x Turn and you do not improve, you are not betting yourself....

Plus villain has a lot of Ax in his range and investing money on river is not that good idea...

This seems like a hand I would check/call the river with. I don’t think you get much value in leading and you beat still some missed draws. Now you need to fold 2 pair I think.

Cheers,
SDK1987

I also prefer to fold preflop here. Might be pretty tight, but that is what is gaining us money on NL2. Most of the players are pretty loose. You don't fight fire with fire.

OTT he is likely to have a pair of Aces. I fold here again most of the times. In some spots I x/c the turn.

On the River it is a x/c again. Just like SDK said, it is not really generating much value leading out here. As played I fold facing the shove.

Nitrol we did improve to two pair, and beat most Ax I am not quite sure what you mean?

Raising J8s preflop is fine from this position as long as its not every time and this is a zoom game , players are tighter than normal tables so RFI here more often than normal tables is +ev.

Can't fold on the turn with pot odds to call remember we have a pair and a flush draw so can still improve even against Ax we easily have the odds to call so never folding OTT to half pot bet. We only need to win 25% to win if we even only include 77 and 44 and all aces Jacks and below ,we have 28% an easy call even if he never bluffs here.

Not betting the river seems too weak, do we think he never calls with Ax? are we just checking to hope he bets his missed draws?

Depends on the table, but I probably won't be opening J8s from MP preflop. Flop CBet is OK. OTT depends on what kind of Villain I am facing. If I know Villain likes to float flops and take stabs at the pot OTT (or is generally somewhat aggro and active) and know he can fold, I may in some cases check/raise OTT, making my hand into a semi-bluff OTT. Yes, you picked up a pair, but it's pretty weak against a Villain who will often have some kind of Ax. If he calls and I don't complete my flush OTR, i just try to check it down or fold to a decent sized bet (if you hit the 2P OTR as in your case and Villain bets big, it again depends on the Villain, but I would probably fold even that given how the hand played out). The good thing about this line is that often you will fold out some weaker Ax type of hands, a lot of FDs as well. Sometimes you might even win SD against a player who will call with somerhing like pocket TT with Ts here.

Alternatively, check/calling OTT is fine, but I never lead into the Villain OTR. I would check/call river again, given that the bet is not that big. Villains will very rarely bluff-shove with busted FDs at NL2. The way you played it, you have to fold to the shove, because I would dare to say 90% of the time you are at least against better 2P.

Imo a bit too loose open pre.
OTF cbetting is fine.
OTT I think betting would be ok too but nothing wrong with xc.
OTR I would just xc again. Now your donk looks very strong and villains raise looks like nuts. I would fold.

Originally posted by monty90
Nitrol we did improve to two pair, and beat most Ax I am not quite sure what you mean?

Raising J8s preflop is fine from this position as long as its not every time and this is a zoom game , players are tighter than normal tables so RFI here more often than normal tables is +ev.

Can't fold on the turn with pot odds to call remember we have a pair and a flush draw so can still improve even against Ax we easily have the odds to call so never folding OTT to half pot bet. We only need to win 25% to win if we even only include 77 and 44 and all aces Jacks and below ,we have 28% an easy call even if he never bluffs here.

Not betting the river seems too weak, do we think he never calls with Ax? are we just checking to hope he bets his missed draws?

If you are winning with opening J8s on MP keep doing it but i doubt it will be very profitable on long terms on a value based game (NL2).

Betting/calling the river is the worst play you could do. Even open folding would be better. You rep a hand that's by far stronger than it really is and call an even stronger play, that makes no sense.

One question. If you had AK on this River you would bet/call shove?

I would never have AK on this river playing this line. I wouldn't x/c the turn on a board that's still got a draw the villain is likely to have. And no I wouldn't call a shove with AK here but J8 is higher in our range.

Interestingly you say we rep a hand far stronger here than we actually have, what other hands do you think we have here? I would probably think our range is limited to A8 J8 and bluffs.

Ts9s, 78s , A8s are standart, J8s (not that standart OR) but JJ, 88, 77, 44, AJ doing a bad slowplay OTT makes perfect sense in NL2.

About the AK i know you wouldn't play AK with this line but would you donk call shove river with tptk in a raised pot OTR against an unknown villain?

No I wouldn't but we don't have TPTK I don't get the relevance of your question!

We don't ever have 78s why would we x/c the turn so we down to 3 hands also they way I've played the hand the bet on the river doesn't make much sense as J8 is unlikely here hence why I called the raise as we will get bluffed here quite a bit.
We are also not slow playing any of the hands you have suggested here in SRP we need to build a pot if we have any of those hands x/c a turn ending up with pot 35.5 bb on the river makes it very difficult to get the money in on the river unless we overbet the pot hoping to get called by bluff catchers. If we play this was way we are certainly losing value.

Originally posted by monty90
No I wouldn't but we don't have TPTK I don't get the relevance of your question!

We don't ever have 78s why would we x/c the turn so we down to 3 hands also they way I've played the hand the bet on the river doesn't make much sense as J8 is unlikely here hence why I called the raise as we will get bluffed here quite a bit.
We are also not slow playing any of the hands you have suggested here in SRP we need to build a pot if we have any of those hands x/c a turn ending up with pot 35.5 bb on the river makes it very difficult to get the money in on the river unless we overbet the pot hoping to get called by bluff catchers. If we play this was way we are certainly losing value.

You are basically beating only tp thats why your hand worth like a TPTK.

And you are seeing the perceived range from a wrong perspective. You should not think of your range, a legit ABC poker player would not take this line with a monster BUT the average NL2 player prolly do that. And that's the perceived range a decent abc player will notice and only shove NUTs OTR. That's why the river makes no sense, you are turning a good bluffcatcher (that's what your hand is) into a bad bluff that MAYBE makes him fold some A4 which i doubt. Calling makes it even worse.

i totally agree with nitrol, it is too loose to open from MP J8s.
Regarddiing postflop. If you don't know how much agressive your villain OTR, you, probably plays vs unknown reg. if so, will he shove here with just TP? I guess no. The basic rule is overfolding at micro vs agression. So, It would be a call with at least top 2 pair, but i would mostly x-call with not even top 2d pair, but it also depends on villain sizing. If he would bet pot size bet, I would probably fold.