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I am trying to Poker, I Suck!

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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

First real NL10 session

This has been a crappy week. Personal issues came through and I am fighting to go back to school, so I feel like I am constantly in an argument. On top of it all I got sick, so I really wasn't playing much. I finally put in a decent session tonight and played for an hour and a half. The shot is currently going well, so I am hoping it will go through. I am up 2BI and since I am taking a 5BI shot, I would need to lose 7BI to drop to NL5. Very possible still, but it is the weekend coming up, so I am hoping the soft weekend pool will be nice to be and the shot can go through.

I use to not really care about hitting NL25 at any rate, my coaching rates go up and I thought well I might as well get as much out of it as possible, but then I realized that I will be able to pay for coaching with a decent win rate at NL25 and not out of my own pocket, so I will be going for it rather aggressively when the time comes. I plan to shoot at a BR of $550 or something. NL25 would be a great milestone imo. But for now lets focus on improving and getting better at NL10 and smashing this limit up.

The pool doesn't feel that different from NL5 to be honest. Working on my flop raises and so far it is paying off quite a bit. Running pretty good that way lots of folds. I am trying to lower the turn probe percentage, but it is working well and I don't want to do too many things at ones. I can perfect that later. Right now it is all about defending the flop better. Weasel's ideas about raising flops IP are pretty neat. It is interesting how these lines can come up by exploiting population tendencies.

I am hoping to get lots of hands in this weekend to keep practicing my flop raising. I find these spots are like learning a technique in Jiu jitsu. You need repetition and there is some kind of sensitivity involved with regards to villian's range. I am not very good at that yet, but I am working on it.

NL10 graph every 10-15k hands I think. I am going to keep trying to play 1k hands during weekdays, and 2-3 on the weekends, so hopefully this just turns into a graph every week.

Feeling super motivated to play. I had some issues with the sizings but I don't seem to care anymore. Holy crap it was a rush to stack someone with the bigger stacks haha.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

You are right that the player pool is not that much different. There probably is just slightly less recreational players and some regs have learned some new tricks like defending more vs 3bets and flop cbets.
You said that your try to lower your turn probe %. That is very often auto-profit line and I guess you should be doing it a lot. How much are you doing it and why do you think it is not working? Sometimes villains are curious and like to call, but then you can bet the river again if the river card isn't terrible and they should fold a lot.
When you are using some creative bluffing lines or exploiting something like high fold to raise, keep in mind that you really need a big sample size. I have noticed that many start exploiting stats based on too small sample and then run into problems.

Good luck at the tables :f_thumbsup:


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Originally posted by la55i
You are right that the player pool is not that much different. There probably is just slightly less recreational players and some regs have learned some new tricks like defending more vs 3bets and flop cbets.
You said that your try to lower your turn probe %. That is very often auto-profit line and I guess you should be doing it a lot. How much are you doing it and why do you think it is not working? Sometimes villains are curious and like to call, but then you can bet the river again if the river card isn't terrible and they should fold a lot.
When you are using some creative bluffing lines or exploiting something like high fold to raise, keep in mind that you really need a big sample size. I have noticed that many start exploiting stats based on too small sample and then run into problems.

Good luck at the tables :f_thumbsup:

My Turn probe is 95% :P. They still fold 55% of the time, so I could keep doing it all day, but I think I can sharpen the timing to do it a little bit. Weasel said in our coaching session he is impressed how high it is. Honestly the river follow up hasn't been as great for me, but they still fold to it 42% or something from my sample. I am not exploiting a high fold to raise, but exploiting the fact the pool doesn't 3bet as a bluff so we can raise IP a lot. Sorry I guess I was being pretty vague in my post.

Anyway the main thing he wants me to work on are flop raises and there were some small things I was missing. For skipping turn probes I am just finding a mid paid type hand that isn't that vulnerable (QT on AQ3r for an easy example) would be good to put in my check back range so I can call a turn probe or check back again and call the river bet on decent. I haven't put a lot of energy into it yet. I am just working on the things weasel taught me for now.

I really appreciate you coming and posting :). I feel like I am just rambling here sometimes. Having the back and forth is great!


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Sounds good, you have got some good tips :)

95% definitely seems a bit high. Even though it is making autoprofit there might be better lines available. If you just exploit the player pool and do this vs anyone you might get into trouble when you accidentally face a tougher villain :f_biggrin: I guess weazel suggested something around 70%?

Did he also talk to you about check raising OOP? Many will bet vs missed cbet too much which allows us to raise quite a lot.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Originally posted by la55i
Sounds good, you have got some good tips :)

95% definitely seems a bit high. Even though it is making autoprofit there might be better lines available. If you just exploit the player pool and do this vs anyone you might get into trouble when you accidentally face a tougher villain :f_biggrin: I guess weazel suggested something around 70%?

Did he also talk to you about check raising OOP? Many will bet vs missed cbet too much which allows us to raise quite a lot.

Yep my c/r oop as the PFR was 0% so that is one of the big things he wants me to work on. He seemed not to worried about the high turn probe at this moment, but I am sure we will get to it later. I am just trying to get some extra credit haha.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Yea the turn probe thing might not be as important. You don't miss much profit if you are doing that super frequently, the fact still is that it works very well and you should do it a lot.
But you seem to have a plan how to start improving your game and that is great :f_thumbsup:


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Originally posted by la55i
Yea the turn probe thing might not be as important. You don't miss much profit if you are doing that super frequently, the fact still is that it works very well and you should do it a lot.
But you seem to have a plan how to start improving your game and that is great :f_thumbsup:

Yeah that's the goal right now really. Just try and get better. Trying to build a bankroll is secondary imo. I could probably use my exact strategy at NL5 and grind out enough to look at NL25 in a decent amount of time, but idk if I would be ready for it. For me it's not really trying to get to the next limit, but just trying to get really good so I can play NL100/NL200 one day. I am trying to measure my progress in concepts and execution, leak plugging etc, rather than bb/100. Though it's difficult because of the money part.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Your approach sounds good. Micros are not for money, they are for getting better at poker. But it is always fun and motivating to see huge winrates and climb up the stakes :f_biggrin:


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Variance is worse than I had imagined.

Well the NL10 shot didn't go through. I hit a significant downswing, and I haven't really understood how bad it can be. (Still don't). I was starting to panic and try to make adjustments all the time, and it made everything worse. I have grown as a poker player from this.

I am really glad I got a coach when I did. Weasel has been awesome. I have had sessions with him, and when I am going through something like this he is always good to explain what is going on. I hit a ten BI (NL10) downswing. I really had a lot of doubt in my head about my play, and I was for sure thinking I was screwed and just a bad player. I talked to weasel about it, and he was awesome. I had no idea that 10BI swings happen all the time. Further more I didn't realize most players will hit a 20bi downswing in a million hands. I wish I would have known it can get like this, because I would have probably taken it better. It's funny how your brain can play tricks on you. It also didn't help I was hoping to be able to jump up to NL25 asap to try and pay for poker with poker, but oh well.

Here is the ugly graph..I drew on it for fun!

So it was time to move back to NL5. My bankroll went from 340 -> 258.
This was about a week of playing at NL10 and quit today, to move down.

I played 1500 hands at NL5 after today and this happened.

The game is far more insane than I could ever imagined. My Bankroll is now 283. Just need to keep grinding and working on my game and soon enough I will be able to shoot at NL10 again. Chris said something to me that will stick. We are poker players not limit x players. Just try and get good, and this is the truth. The importance of being blind to results is extremly important. I think the key to a high winrate is to keep your head on.

Keep at it friends.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Those downswings are nasty. I just had a similar swing so I know what it feels like :f_biggrin:
10 bin swings are not that common but will happen from time to time.. I guess in the last 200k hands I have had about 3 of those.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Alright NL10 lets do this.

When I had to move back down I ran really good at NL5 in a mater of a few days I built my BR back up to take a shot again. My NL 10 graph is the same as above, but you can see my new NL5 graph here:

I am going to be a lot more strict about shooting NL10 this time. My BR is currently $303 and I am going to take a 5BI shot, so I will move back down if I hit $253, and we will do this again. And keep doing it, and improving until the MO$@#$@ING shot goes through.

I had a downswing session with Weasel and looking at my shitty played hands when I moved up was an eye opener. My mindset is was really F@#$ed me. The downswing was made worse from personal mindset issues, and some strategic errors. I never felt like I wanted to smash the computer, but I was making some pretty bad calls etc. I also identified I am not playing postflop much differently based on position, so that is my new focus for the next few weeks. Looser in the blinds, tighter from EP (villian dependent of course). Also not caalling Jams with stuff like QQ from EP.

On the bright side weasel looked at my overall stats and said he noticed a good improvement in my numbers, and they look better than a lot of regs at NL10, so we are improving and that is all that matters.

This downswing was probably the best thing that happened to me to improve my game. I have a much better feel for how cruel the game can be, and get let nervous. I remember that feeling of not wanted to have to move back down, and got desperate. It is a feeling that can cause someone to bust their roll and quit poker forever. I think it is important that I realize I am capable of falling into these traps, and I must be very disciplined to avoid it.

If you are reading this I have learned the following: HAVING TO MOVE DOWN DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE MOVING BACKWARDS. WE CAN STILL IMPROVE OUR POKER SKILL, WE ARE POKER PLAYERS, NOT DEFINED BY THE LIMIT WE PLAY ON, WE NOT NOT NLX PLAYERS, JUST PLAYERS. Smart BRM, good mindset, and a hunger to improve is how you beat the game. It's similar to Jiu jitsu, people do it to win, not to improve. Improvement will bring winning as a byproduct, but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. If you just focus on winning you can develop bad habits and tilt issues.

In my limited experience, my ideal road map for a new beginner would be to learn the general ideas, or general strategy. It can be rules of thumb in the beginning, learn them until you don't make mistakes at NL2 or whatever. Then start with an area that happens all the time, Cbetting for example, and focus on modifying or deepening your knowledge for ~2 weeks for that area. Start with a lot of off table work, construct the ranges for different boards until you get a better idea of how it works. Then start doing it at the tables. You ONLY mark you success in play if you made the adjustments, them correctly. Point it out when you do it at the table, count how many times it was good and bad, then review off table. When you aren't making mistakes for a few sessions in a row you can move onto something else. But when you return to cbetting be more spefic, so maybe cbetting OOP, then the next time cbetting IP, then Cbetting OOP against EP, so you cycle through the different areas and as you revisit it you dig deeper and deeper, but not moving on until you are happy with the improvement. This approach is good imo because you get the most out of it. In the beginning our WR will increase by getting a more general understanding. Learning what good hands are to cbetting oop is going to help your winrate than something super specific like playing You get diminishing returns in skill the deeper you go, so we want to study in a way that maximizes our skill improvement rate EV. Breaking things down into small chunks and getting really good at them before we move on is a good way to retain the concepts. It's a waste of time if we forget them right away. I also think you should limit yourself from moving up until you hit the BR that supports it and you reach some sort of study goal you set for yourself.

The past few weeks I studied flop raising, which hands do I want to raise flops with, then once I caught on I moved on hands I can only raise when IP, for example. Now I don't really have to think to hard about candidates for doing it. You don't want to auto pilot, because sometimes a hand is a candidate but there is a reason to not do it, but you want to know the default play instantly.

This is a long entry, and I was typing really fast, so I don't expect many to read it, as it is probably full of typos and crappy grammar. Interesting week never the less. Going to go try and not burn my five NL10 buy ins now.

:f_drink:


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TakingAShot
Joined: 29.05.2017

I was up at 10NL a couple of months ago and then hit an absolutely brutal run of losing multiway all ins with huge equity. I dropped about 8-10 BI's and then cooled things off on the poker front for a while and played some more chess. Obviously, I wish I hadn't taken the break but all in all, I'm in a better state of mind to deal with 10NL again this time around now that I know what to expect and now that I've already taken some hard beats there. It tempered me.

In all seriousness: Great thread. I'm definitely following.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Originally posted by TakingAShot
I was up at 10NL a couple of months ago and then hit an absolutely brutal run of losing multiway all ins with huge equity. I dropped about 8-10 BI's and then cooled things off on the poker front for a while and played some more chess. Obviously, I wish I hadn't taken the break but all in all, I'm in a better state of mind to deal with 10NL again this time around now that I know what to expect and now that I've already taken some hard beats there. It tempered me.

In all seriousness: Great thread. I'm definitely following.

Thanks for the nice words! Lets go smash some NL10!


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Mental Game weak
My goal for hands today was 2.5k, and I played 1k. I am up about 1.5 BI, but I really see this as a failure. The point of this is to not care. I found myself quitting anytime I won a 50bb+ pot, then coming back later. Blah. This is a huge leak imo, so I bought mental game of Poker on audiobook.

I fear hitting a downswing again. I am not going to get into NL10 unless I play. I am giving myself a bit of a break on this today because I am back to feeling out NL10, and just got out of my shitty work term, but that's it. Tommorow I am doing my grind schedule and that is that.

Tonight I am going to do some studying to make some tweaks to some of my ranges. But I just need to get a lot of hands in at NL10. I know it is crazy to have this fear, but I can feel it in my chest. I don't like it.

Mental game is a solid 5/10.


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TakingAShot
Joined: 29.05.2017

Originally posted by Chowchow12
Mental Game weak
My goal for hands today was 2.5k, and I played 1k. I am up about 1.5 BI, but I really see this as a failure. The point of this is to not care. I found myself quitting anytime I won a 50bb+ pot, then coming back later. Blah. This is a huge leak imo, so I bought mental game of Poker on audiobook.

I fear hitting a downswing again. I am not going to get into NL10 unless I play. I am giving myself a bit of a break on this today because I am back to feeling out NL10, and just got out of my shitty work term, but that's it. Tommorow I am doing my grind schedule and that is that.

Tonight I am going to do some studying to make some tweaks to some of my ranges. But I just need to get a lot of hands in at NL10. I know it is crazy to have this fear, but I can feel it in my chest. I don't like it.

Mental game is a solid 5/10.

At least you're aware of what your hurdles are currently and you're stopping, considering them, and deciding how to move forward. I think you're handling things intelligently and maturely.

The thing that can be crippling is the first bad run @ 10NL. Even going card dead for a stretch can be tilting. With $10 reloads each and every time, this is where the money can start just running away from you quickly if you're not careful. At the same time - as you've discovered - winning big pots here starts to also get really exciting. That's the catch - We now start dealing with a wider range of emotions during our sessions and it begins to immediately test our mental game again.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Fuck

Seemed like it was going well for a bit until I hit that rough patch. I would am frustrated. Running like shit at NL5 too. Oh well. I am confident I can beat NL10. I just need variance to stop trolling me. I can see why people switch games all the time. Poker is frustrating.

Anyway back to trying to grind out another 10 BI for NL10. I have the month off so I am sure I can grind it out pretty quick time wise. NL5 is being a bit of a bastard too here. Fun times. Back to the tables.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

Anti-Confidence: The monkey on my back
I have been playing a lot since the last shot at NL10. Results wise it has been pretty break even. When I run like this I feel like I start to blame myself quite a bit. I have noticed my redline is starting to tank more and it kind of just bothers me a lot more than it should.

This seems to be a reoccurring problem I am suffering from in life. I come out of the gate strong then progression seems to hit a huge slow down, and I blame myself quite a bit. I really wish I could just be a little more confident in my play. The losses at NL10 really make me question myself here.

I am worried I have changed the way I am playing too much. Though, I am not really sure if I have change the way I have played too much. All I can really do is keep going. I am at an issue with studying where I am not all the sure on what to do.

Mental game feels week. I think I have been playing a little too much. I focused too hard on trying to shoot NL10 again. It seems kind of silly. Worrying too much is going to make everything worse. I have been notice my focus shifting too much to my results. Must stop this.

I have just been playing a lot and worrying to much about results than playing every hand well.

Get your head on straight ChowChow.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

NL5 Results since I have been back

Played about 11k hands at NL5 and it has been kind of rough. I am not sure this is all variance, or if I have changed the way I have been playing to cause this. I don't think I am playing much differently. I am honestly not sure.

Will need another 10k hands to find out. Another scary thing to look at is if I look at how my last 20k hands have been overall. (Combined NL10 and NL5)

Now there were some mindset issues in the beginning for my first shot, but this legitimately worries me.


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Chowchow12
Joined: 04.06.2012

BAD MINDSET LEADS TO BAD DECISIONS
I went through a lot of these hands and I found a lot of leaks. First off my 3betting percentage went down. I wasn't four betting value hands. I was missing flop raising. I wasn't 3betting enough in general. It dropped my redline a whole lot. It likely wasn't that good to begin with so I am pretty sure the problem was just playing brain dead, auto piloting etc. I am folding flops too much, and I am folding turns too much.

It's time to do a few things: FOCUS! (keep an active brain), Study more than just live play videos, keep up the aggression (I played another 500 hands just thinking about how I can make someone fold, and it really helped).

I found some of my lines changed, and that made a big difference. I think a huge part of this is due to bad hand reading and just grinding it out on auto pilot.

It's quality over quantity at this point. I really lost my edge and really just auto piloted, sitting around and waiting for an upswing to come. Mindset was just awful.

Holy shit I played terrible for 30k hands. What a great lesson to learn for the future and for anyone reading this: I got lazy. Don't do that, or this will happen.

The rest of this week is re-dedicating myself to study and playing well. Back to flop study for me, because I am clearly missing it.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

You are right, bad mindset leads to bad decisions. And focus is super important when you are playing.
It is great that you spotted some leaks and now can start improving on those spots :f_thumbsup:
Good luck :)


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