(FR) AKo vs 4bet shove

pot odds question. give him a range and check your equity

Indeed, but I expect you will flip in best case against a unknown. I expect he has most likely a range of QQ+ and AK.

Cheers,
SDK1987

To call profitable AKo, guy have to 4bet shove:

1 - Some bluffs - A5s ou A4s some percentage or
2 - Shove AQ for "value"

If guy only shoves 99+, AKo-AKs your calling threshold should be probably QQ+ and AKsuited. AKo is Breakeven or slightly losing i believe.

Calculate your pot odds and see if you have enough equity with AKo its a good exercise.

instant jaam for me ! :)) 99+ good luck at the tables

By folding you're giving him credit for KK+ becuase only vs this range your fold is profitable. I have no idea for the unknowns at 5NL FR and the population tendencies. If you think that most of the time an unknown will have KK+ than your fold is good, if not your fold is bad.

1 - Some bluffs - A5s ou A4s some percentage or
2 - Shove AQ for "value"

Only if he is a fish. A good player wont shove AQ for value and he will perfectly know that Hero has a monster hand, he will never bluff with A5s, because he is riking way too much for very little FE. And the real question is how likely is that the villain is a fish.

Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
By folding you're giving him credit for KK+ becuase only vs this range your fold is profitable. I have no idea for the unknowns at 5NL FR and the population tendencies. If you think that most of the time an unknown will have KK+ than your fold is good, if not your fold is bad.

Yeah. I don't have a huge sample size. Based on https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=493055 , it is something around 4% which is a lot more than QQ+ and AK.

The problem is how reliable that average would really be, specially because the 3bet and the 4bet range are both 4%.

I don't even know how to apply that considering multiway action and the positions involved.

I guess one scenario is when villain A raises, B 3bets and villain A 4bets. A different one would be if we have 3 players involved: A raises, B 3bets ans C 4bets.
And how about someone 3betting or even 4betting from early positions?

Or should I mainly consider the raw stat value and ignore everything else?

Originally posted by AlexKockar
instant jaam for me ! :)) 99+ good luck at the tables

If oponent have a to wide bluff 3betting range like 13-16% positional, 4bet shove pocket pairs is profitable play i made some simulations on CREV.

I was giving a scenario only, i dont shove 99 over 3bet at NL5 without reads, bro...

You can't just take the average number and apply, because it will be wrong. Eery situation is different. One may have 1% 3-bet in one situation and 60% in another. It's more about a feel, what you've seen in the past in similar situations, than some raw stats.

Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
By folding you're giving him credit for KK+ becuase only vs this range your fold is profitable. I have no idea for the unknowns at 5NL FR and the population tendencies. If you think that most of the time an unknown will have KK+ than your fold is good, if not your fold is bad.

1 - Some bluffs - A5s ou A4s some percentage or
2 - Shove AQ for "value"

Only if he is a fish. A good player wont shove AQ for value and he will perfectly know that Hero has a monster hand, he will never bluff with A5s, because he is riking way too much for very little FE. And the real question is how likely is that the villain is a fish.

As you can se i put AQ inside " " because i know AQ isn't a value jam.

I built 2 scenarios where AKo is a call. if none of these are true simple fold AK.

If population only have QQ+, AK --> AK is a fold basically, because you dont have enough equity to call.

And i dont know which limits you play, but NL25 and up people have a 4bet shoving bluff range with A5-A4s....

Originally posted by semiramiRNMD
You can't just take the average number and apply, because it will be wrong. Eery situation is different. One may have 1% 3-bet in one situation and 60% in another. It's more about a feel, what you've seen in the past in similar situations, than some raw stats.

I almost called/shoved there because a huge fish had just left that exactly seat and, most of the time, when you re-enter an anonymous table, the same seat is assigned to you.
Unfortunately it would be a guessing game. It could be the exactly same player (which had been betting/raising crazily), but it could be a different (good) player that got that seat. So, I had to assume he was unknown...

If population only have QQ+, AK --> AK is a fold basically, because you dont have enough equity to call.

You have enough equity vs QQ+, AK, if you're playing NL25 you should know that.
Well you need 1% more, but that's a BE call basically.

And i dont know which limits you play, but NL25 and up people have a 4bet shoving bluff range with A5-A4s....

Yes I know, but not at 5NL, FR and in this scenario. Every good player will know that Hero will have very strong range. Yeah since Hero is also unknown for the villain, if the villain is a good player he will know that Hero is either a 5NL FR reg, which means very strong range, or Hero is a fish. In both cases shoving A5s is really bad strategy.

Interesting. 100bb effective facing a 4bet-shove I'm pretty sure it won't be +EV to call against a unknown. With background, table dynamics, etc it will be more opponent dependent and might be totally worth the call.
Remember AK is a hand that relies on fold equity.
Just fold and move on. With AKs it would be a nasty spot for sure. AKo I'm folding easily.

Villain had