[Closed] NL100 FR QQ OOP in 3bet pot

it might seem nitty, but I fold QQ PF in these spots. It is hardly profitable to continue with them, and your hand is so face up, unless you start to cold call AA (and maybe some other things) as well.

If he 3bet you again when you raise early, then a small 4bet PF is a good option

Originally posted by cindy1985

If he 3bet you again when you raise early, then a small 4bet PF is a good option

to achieve what exactly?

to the hand: I think calling is ok, and folding would be nitty but ok as well. nh!

Best regards,
TribunCaesar

To answer your question (asked in a very delicate manner), I hope to achieve this:

- A small 4bet helps to have a much higher 4bet %, and you will eventually get over agressive people to 5bet you with AK. If you have 4bet quite a bit previously, you can even call a 5bet shove with QQ. This is directed towards a particular type of opponent obviously (there are quite a bit of these at FR NL100-NL200 lately, I'm constantly witnessing over aggressive regs 3betting UTG raiser with KJs...).

- Win the pot right there a fair amount of the time

Originally posted by cindy1985
To answer your question (asked in a very delicate manner), I hope to achieve this:

- A small 4bet helps to have a much higher 4bet %, and you will eventually get over agressive people to 5bet you with AK. If you have 4bet quite a bit previously, you can even call a 5bet shove with QQ. This is directed towards a particular type of opponent obviously (there are quite a bit of these at FR NL100-NL200 lately, I'm constantly witnessing over aggressive regs 3betting UTG raiser with KJs...).

- Win the pot right there a fair amount of the time

I like this, I need to 4bet more often to get fully paid with my real monsters.

Originally posted by cindy1985
To answer your question (asked in a very delicate manner), I hope to achieve this:

- A small 4bet helps to have a much higher 4bet %, and you will eventually get over agressive people to 5bet you with AK. If you have 4bet quite a bit previously, you can even call a 5bet shove with QQ. This is directed towards a particular type of opponent obviously (there are quite a bit of these at FR NL100-NL200 lately, I'm constantly witnessing over aggressive regs 3betting UTG raiser with KJs...).

- Win the pot right there a fair amount of the time

sorry for the delicate manner, don't get it wrong dude

I just wanted to check that you don't want to 4bet/fold or so. 4betting when you know he is gonna shove/call worse is obv fine. Just be sure you do it against the right opponent. What is a good play vs one opponent is horrible against another.

Best regards,
TribunCaesar

Originally posted by TribunCaesar

sorry for the delicate manner, don't get it wrong dude

np, I guess I was browsing the forums after a bad beat and my first post really wasn't clear

I dont like the suggested lines too much.

classy scenerio of op vs agro, presumably good opp oop, which should be analysed separetely for each opp imo:

PF: i consider f overnitty, even though not many stats are mentioned, but 5.7 3bet alone stands for huuge position misuse tendencies. --> hence i want to keep my strong hand in and play vs him with a plan in mind right from the flop

F:i absolutely dislike c/c and am certain is not best ev here. It only puts us into rly diff decisions later without builiding up a pot big enough, so that it would ease somehow the turnplay.

i c these lines comparably better: 1, c/r --> to build up a pot and protect, bad abt this line is that we can often be isolating vs better, thats why: 2, b/c might be better, esp vs agro opp, donking is very oft good idea of getting value in, bcs r is coming way too often, and to a call we can set some traps for turn, where we can decide on c/c, or shove directly (ofc the pot is big enough, we cant fold to anything basically) .. and 3, b/r -- easy to play, gets value in and if opp raises bigger theres a good chance of him sticking in with worse too bcs of odds, tp+ some backdoor dr fe.. ,

the decision among these 3 should lie within comparing his wts, af on turn compared to af of flop, fold to c/r flop, and ofc reads..

c/c is very hard to play + gets very little value in, and doesnt protect at all

AA/KK is 0.9% so only 15% of his range... should we rly be scared? i dont think so..

why do you say 5.7 3Bet % indicates huge position misuse?

I agree it is on the bigger side, but still reasonable, plus on a bigger sample it could be anywhere between 1% to 10% I guess...

In addition, the player seems to be a tight/nitty tag (14/11). So without any more information (how does he perceives us and our EP range) and if we assume we are tight in EP, we can give him the range AK, JJ+, JJ is even borderline I think. Against this range we are definitely not doing good, not to mention the difficulty to play oop.

Conclusion: I am still in favour of a fold PF against a nitty tag oop. If it was a different opponent, or if he perceives us as a lag (or a fish for some reason) then it's another story. And as you said, in these cases you want to build the pot, and I like a 4 bet PF in some occasions.

Originally posted by cindy1985
why do you say 5.7 3Bet % indicates huge position misuse?

I agree it is on the bigger side, but still reasonable, plus on a bigger sample it could be anywhere between 1% to 10% I guess...

In addition, the player seems to be a tight/nitty tag (14/11). So without any more information (how does he perceives us and our EP range) and if we assume we are tight in EP, we can give him the range AK, JJ+, JJ is even borderline I think. Against this range we are definitely not doing good, not to mention the difficulty to play oop.

Conclusion: I am still in favour of a fold PF against a nitty tag oop. If it was a different opponent, or if he perceives us as a lag (or a fish for some reason) then it's another story. And as you said, in these cases you want to build the pot, and I like a 4 bet PF in some occasions.

the more taggy he perceives us, the more he ll be 3betting us, right? .. 5.7 is very big for FR.. i would agree with your argumentation if it was <4 , but that s rly a notable diff.. also i rly dont see a nit in 14/11 stats

5.7 is big, but not extremely big and on only 300 hands. Plus he is likely to be three betting more honestly an early position raise... don't you think?

For my personnal classification, anything lower than 12/8 is a NIT only playing to set mine, 14/11 is a nitty tag, somewhere around 16/12 is standard solid tag of NL200/400, above 18 VPIP is lag. My point is 14/11 mainly play their cards, especially on NL100, so here we can expect to be behind here most of the time because he only 3bets for value. If he thinks we are loose/fishy, his value range becomes larger and we can start thinking that we are ahead.

As played I like to donk/ go broke very often, I think if you donkbet 3/5 pot or so, he would shove very often with AK, which he is more likely to hold than AA/KK.

5.7% 3bet isnt that loose. My 3bet% is 5.3