J9s in BB vs MP

Without information i would fold the turn raise

Against a unknown I don't think a fold pre-flop against a 3,5x raise is bad without position.

On the turn I would check and call a reasonable bet with bottom pair, straight and flush draws with the show down value that you have. It's tough to get value or a better hand to fold with betting.

Now you get in a spot you need to fold your hand.

Cheers,
SDK1987

I prefer fold or 3bet oop here.

Also the range you've put down for MP is far too wide here

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Without information i would fold the turn raise

But the pot odds are right?
Even if my estimated hand range is a bit too far.

Originally posted by SDK1987
Against a unknown I don't think a fold pre-flop against a 3,5x raise is bad without position.

On the turn I would check and call a reasonable bet with bottom pair, straight and flush draws with the show down value that you have. It's tough to get value or a better hand to fold with betting.

Now you get in a spot you need to fold your hand.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Against 3.5x open raise you can certainly fold it but against 3x raise I don't see a fold here.
On the turn the pot odds are right why do we fold?

Originally posted by bumblebtuna
I prefer fold or 3bet oop here.

Also the range you've put down for MP is far too wide here

Yes, in retrospect, I also think the hand range of him is overestimated by me.

Originally posted by AcesUTGFold

Originally posted by bumblebtuna
I prefer fold or 3bet oop here.

Also the range you've put down for MP is far too wide here

Yes, in retrospect, I also think the hand range of him is overestimated by me.

"Wide" was poor wording on my part, but i think youre missing a lot of strong hands. I think something like, AA,KK,QQ,99,66,AK,KQ,KJ,JT,Ts8s,8h7h

While I would agree x'ing back sets and 2 pair on flop isn't something we expect, when its an unknown player im keeping those in their range. Even if I have some hands on them a V will still check their some frequency.

Originally posted by AcesUTGFold

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Without information i would fold the turn raise

But the pot odds are right?
Even if my estimated hand range is a bit too far.

The pot odds might be right but you are OOP and most likely behind. I understand it's tempting to call but it will be hard to extract value if you hit.
Also you dont want to argue with the other members. If you are convinced that your play is correct then you should not post your hand. This doesnt force you to agree, just keep your disagreement for yourself

I think pokerstrategy should apply this as some sort of a rule with the idea to teach his members some manners. Very annoying and bad habit.

Originally posted by AcesUTGFold

Originally posted by SDK1987
Against a unknown I don't think a fold pre-flop against a 3,5x raise is bad without position.

On the turn I would check and call a reasonable bet with bottom pair, straight and flush draws with the show down value that you have. It's tough to get value or a better hand to fold with betting.

Now you get in a spot you need to fold your hand.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Against 3.5x open raise you can certainly fold it but against 3x raise I don't see a fold here.
On the turn the pot odds are right why do we fold?

You have 12 outs of the 46 unknown cards to win the hand with a straight or flush. That's 26% equity.

You need to call $1,63 to win a pot of $4,98. That means you need to win 33,3% of the time to make a call profitable and that's not the case here.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
I think pokerstrategy should apply this as some sort of a rule with the idea to teach his members some manners. Very annoying and bad habit.

Disagreement is a healthy part of discussion and learning and should be encouraged! We are all here to learn and get better. Nothing said here has been disrespectful

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135

Originally posted by AcesUTGFold

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
Without information i would fold the turn raise

But the pot odds are right?
Even if my estimated hand range is a bit too far.

The pot odds might be right but you are OOP and most likely behind. I understand it's tempting to call but it will be hard to extract value if you hit.
Also you dont want to argue with the other members. If you are convinced that your play is correct then you should not post your hand. This doesnt force you to agree, just keep your disagreement for yourself

I think pokerstrategy should apply this as some sort of a rule with the idea to teach his members some manners. Very annoying and bad habit.

First of all, thank you for your answer.
I have massive postflop errors that's why I like to discuss. Therefore, my further counter-question it was not a personal attack against you there is no problem.

Originally posted by SDK1987

Originally posted by AcesUTGFold

Originally posted by SDK1987
Against a unknown I don't think a fold pre-flop against a 3,5x raise is bad without position.

On the turn I would check and call a reasonable bet with bottom pair, straight and flush draws with the show down value that you have. It's tough to get value or a better hand to fold with betting.

Now you get in a spot you need to fold your hand.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Against 3.5x open raise you can certainly fold it but against 3x raise I don't see a fold here.
On the turn the pot odds are right why do we fold?

You have 12 outs of the 46 unknown cards to win the hand with a straight or flush. That's 26% equity.

You need to call $1,63 to win a pot of $4,98. That means you need to win 33,3% of the time to make a call profitable and that's not the case here.

Then my estimated hand range is really too wide. Because with that I would have good pot odds in any case.

Probably. Offcourse if you hit the 9 you could win as as well and the jack is most likely a dirty out on a board like this.

Originally posted by bumblebtuna

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
I think pokerstrategy should apply this as some sort of a rule with the idea to teach his members some manners. Very annoying and bad habit.

Disagreement is a healthy part of discussion and learning and should be encouraged! We are all here to learn and get better. Nothing said here has been disrespectful

No! This is not the correct logic for me. When you post a hand for analysis it's because you have some doubts about it. You want an opinions. That's why you dont argue with the other members! Yes it's disrespectfull and bad etiquette but i forgive him because it's not on purpose. He just dont know how to behave in this communities. You too by the way.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135

Originally posted by bumblebtuna

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
I think pokerstrategy should apply this as some sort of a rule with the idea to teach his members some manners. Very annoying and bad habit.

Disagreement is a healthy part of discussion and learning and should be encouraged! We are all here to learn and get better. Nothing said here has been disrespectful

No! This is not the correct logic for me. When you post a hand for analysis it's because you have some doubts about it. You want an opinions. That's why you dont argue with the other members! Yes it's disrespectfull and bad etiquette but i forgive him because it's not on purpose. He just dont know how to behave in this communities. You too by the way.

Well, I'm new, but I've been apart of many poker forums and I stand by what I've said. None of us will get better unless we discuss the ideas put forward by everyone. If original poster takes my advice, because no one wanted to say "well actually this line might be better because of xyz", and it turns out my advice is just bad, no one has learnt anything. Not the poster, not me, anyone else reading the post...

If I am out of line I hope a moderator or senior member will please call me on it

Kind of unnecessary to bet turn in my opinion. We have showdown value with third pair and we can easily go for x-c. With bet hand is kind of gray area if its done as value bet or bluff and usually that is good indicator for check. I could see some point in x-r turn and turning hand into semibluff that way. As played folding to turn raise seems bit on tight side but its close. With two fd available I can see fair amount of implied odds. But indeed some of our outs can also be dirty. But as said I dont really want to open possibility for raise with turn bet in first place though its quite low risk.

Turn 3bet shove is interesting option. Though I doubt we are getting villain value range to fold either, like Q9 two pair? About range for villain I doubt Q♥:J♥: type would raise turn. More likely his range to be more polarized. Sets and KQ are probably cbetting lot of time so range is capped after flop check. K9, Q9, JT, 99 being most likely value combos. Then some semibluffs potentially with straight blocker. That sort of range would be my assumption. I doubt population is aggro enough we should assume that many of those T♥:8♥: type?

Btw terminology wise our turn bet is called probe bet. Cbets are for preflop aggressor.

Posting hands even if you think your line is good is fine. Thats how some of biggest leaks are actually found in private coaching sessions. Coach ask "why you did this?" and suddenly that no brainer default line is questioned.

Originally posted by ghaleon
Kind of unnecessary to bet turn in my opinion. We have showdown value with third pair and we can easily go for x-c. With bet hand is kind of gray area if its done as value bet or bluff and usually that is good indicator for check. I could see some point in x-r turn and turning hand into semibluff that way. As played folding to turn raise seems bit on tight side but its close. With two fd available I can see fair amount of implied odds. But indeed some of our outs can also be dirty. But as said I dont really want to open possibility for raise with turn bet in first place though its quite low risk.

Turn 3bet shove is interesting option. Though I doubt we are getting villain value range to fold either, like Q9 two pair? About range for villain I doubt Q♥:J♥: type would raise turn. More likely his range to be more polarized. Sets and KQ are probably cbetting lot of time so range is capped after flop check. K9, Q9, JT, 99 being most likely value combos. Then some semibluffs potentially with straight blocker. That sort of range would be my assumption. I doubt population is aggro enough we should assume that many of those T♥:8♥: type?

Btw terminology wise our turn bet is called probe bet. Cbets are for preflop aggressor.

Posting hands even if you think your line is good is fine. Thats how some of biggest leaks are actually found in private coaching sessions. Coach ask "why you did this?" and suddenly that no brainer default line is questioned.

I also think that my handrange estimation was too far.
You can safely take out J8s and T8s.
Where I think most will also play K9s on the flop a bet? Of course it's always a bit difficult to estimate when you have absolutely no information about the opponent.

Interesting hand, interesting thread. I wish I had something more to say but I am following and learning along.

Originally posted by AcesUTGFold
Where I think most will also play K9s on the flop a bet? Of course it's always a bit difficult to estimate when you have absolutely no information about the opponent.

Yeah usually people bet too much with top pairs and dont leave protection for their check range. But if you think about hand like K9s from MP range its likely more or less bottom of Kx hands? So having some of these weakest top pair combos in check range is not bad and its questionable how aggro you can get with it. Can be thin to go for bet flop, bet turn and getting x-r on flop is nasty.