playing JJ for stacks

That deep and this positions, I think he never have TT and bluff 4bet is very unlikely..Even with some "dynamics"..We must think for call, but I think the call is not easy either...To call here with this hand, you should be capable of "Hero folds" sometime...Otherwise it's -EV, I think...I expect very tight range from him. Even if he have AK, it's not very clear how we will "extract" value from this call...The price is too high for this call..Imo..I think you are in trouble even with QQ, but this is JJ...Fold imo...I will fold..Actually it's better to have here AKo than JJ. JJ is the stronger hand, but...I think JJ is just good enough to lose your stack, that's I think...

Also I think you can use polarized range for 3bet, 160bb deep, you can call some hands vs OR...When you are that deep, the position have more value...You can use some Axs and suited connectors for 3bet, I think..

Very often this 4bet is AA...

Vs this 4bet, we can argue which is better for 5bet shove, A5s or JJ...

I hope you realize what I am saying. Vs tight range JJ is nothing but PP. You just block JJ in his range..And JJ is very unlikely to be here...You are blocking also AJ and this hand the regs do like for UTG 4bet bluff (still very unlikely that deep)...

After a 4bet from UTG (and a pretty big one considering the size of your 3bet, it's 3.2x), the situation doesn't look very good. You have 3 options: call, fold, raise. I think the raise is the worst. He doesn't have enough bluffs to make it a 5bet, and when he calls you, you are flipping at best. And on top of all, I don't think you should have a 5bet range here, you should call with AA and KK because the ranges are so tight here and you want to protect your calling range.
Call or fold then. Given the big size he used, I would assume folding is not that bad, even with Jacks. You can call for a 2.5x 4bet, with the intent of folding on every A or K high flops, and probably shoving yourself on other flops.

When I have some "dynamics" with some reg, I just switch at value heavy ranges. It's impossible to say when he is waiting for hand, when he wants to "strike back". If you play fast poker. It's no problem if he play with wide range, calling to much, raising too much or folding too much. If you are with value heavy ranges , I mean value with some bluffs , more value.

From his point of view, I mean, lets say I bet 50% postflop, there is no way for me to have 1/4 bluffs or more here..He can notice that, but if you play with tight ranges pre, it's very unlikely. Also postflop more passively...To have more value, when you bet. Also preflop...Some bluffs (if deep), mainly value, capped range for call. But I don't like to play deep. For some reasons, this reason as well...

With 100bb al least you have profitable 5bet shove vs such a guys. Trying to "strike back"...He is trying something, thinking of something, well, let him do his things..When they try to defend vs 3bet, very often they use bluff heavy ranges. Many hands are kinda good for 4bet bluff and he don't have some balanced range, he just have some hand, he don't like to call (not a strong hand), he decide to 4bet. Because maybe you 3bet too much..And 5bet will have a massive profit, several blinds, even with high rake...

But when they are deep, they just never fold vs 3bet, that's their way to "strike back". And 4bet very often is very strong...You still can use "normal" 3bet and over fold vs 4bet. But he can notice that. And you can't tell what is the case. You will only guess. And very often will be "leveling"...And when deep, it hurts so much. The mistake...

Ask your self how many times you are trying to strike back vs some guy, who try to exploit your play. And you are wrong...If you are wrong, this is a massive lost, if you are right, it's not a massive profit...

Very often I did that...But no more..Still I played vs ultra aggro fields and I even use 4bet-shove as defend. With some success, even hand like 22 , fck this, I am all in :f_biggrin:..4bet shove vs resteal. But if I am right, we are talking for 2bb profit. Max...But what if I am wrong!? You just narrow your ranges for OR and call pre, playing like a nit..When you have some "problems". Or "reads"..This is the way. Imo...

if you have HUD, you can do many things. Really "insane" things. The HUD have no limit...But without a HUD, what else you can do!?

Take it easy guys. I'm not that crazy. I had a pretty good read that this player overplays suited Ace hands, like AJs/A5s.

If you must know.

You should always run it twice..It's better for your BRM....Don't gamble imo...

I had a pretty good read that this player overplays suited Ace hands, like AJs/A5s.

No offence, mate, but probably he will call that vs less than 7bb 3bet and 160bb deep...But OK..Fair enough..I said enough..

Take it easy guys. I'm not that crazy. I had a pretty good read that this player overplays suited Ace hands, like AJs/A5s.

Then i dont fully agree with the 5bet shove. By "fully" i mean given the info you should start 5bet bluff as well or flatting your top range like JJ-AA even 88-TT, the more preferable option to me. The idea is that with 5bet you chase his bluffs. While by flatting you could rope him postflop. This will keep your range uncapped as well. The negative side is that you give him a chance to crack your hand. So you really need V to be aggressive postflop.

You have to choose at some point how are you going to play. Adding 5bet bluffs to your range or start flatting your top range.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135

Take it easy guys. I'm not that crazy. I had a pretty good read that this player overplays suited Ace hands, like AJs/A5s.

Then i dont fully agree with the 5bet shove. By "fully" i mean given the info you should start 5bet bluff as well or flatting your top range like JJ-AA even 88-TT, the more preferable option to me. The idea is that with 5bet you chase his bluffs. While by flatting you could rope him postflop. This will keep your range uncapped as well. The negative side is that you give him a chance to crack your hand. So you really need V to be aggressive postflop.

You have to choose at some point how are you going to play. Adding 5bet bluffs to your range or start flatting your top range.

Exactly!!
That's why I said in my previous answer: "You can call for a 2.5x 4bet, with the intent of folding on every A or K high flops, and probably shoving yourself on other flops."

Why shove OTF? What is the reason for this? The thing is you calling just to see board without A or K and you are still a sitting duck there. You can't do nothing. Well ,he can..He can slow play, he can give up, he can bluff, he can use small bets for "thin value"...He can do whatever he want to do...But you can't :f_biggrin:..You have the bottom of his range, actually "under the bottom"...Which means you have only "weak bluff catcher", "pure" bluff catcher. With two outs...You can't do "value bets" with bluff catcher...Or value raise...You hope that he checks OTF and you shove, for "protection". Kinda "over kill". With a "pure bluff catcher", don't you think!? And this "perfect situation" will be only sometime, let's say 20%..And you hand will be exactly like 66, no difference at all...Do you call here with 66? Do you shove on the board without A, K...Actually 66 is better, not blocking AJ , some boards are more "attractive" for this hand, 542 for example...But no one will call or shove with this hand...Pre flop..."Jacks", what are the Jacks vs very narrow range with possible polarization? Nothing..A pocket pair...

He can slow play, he can give up, he can bluff, he can use small bets for "thin value"...He can do whatever he want to do...But you can't

He cant do whatever he want because

1) He dont have position
2) Hero's range is uncapped

Interesting topic...Can someone explain the difference here between JJ and 66? I know the difference...Why JJ is a top hand? What are the factors for this? Answer these questions. For your self.... And then see this hand. The hands have "absolute strength" and a "relative strength"...I don't know the exact terms and I don't care. This absolute strength is a "GTO thing", you should not care at all for this. Leave this sh1t to the coaches...

By "fully" i mean given the info you should start 5bet bluff as well or flatting your top range like JJ-AA even 88-TT, the more preferable option to me.

@Napoleon , you will shove here with A5s, is that right? 7bb 3bet, 5bet shove with 160bb. Vs UtG..Really?..everything is easy to say ..I mean here...We are all badass players here. But I think no one will shove vs UTG in this situation. With weaker hand than JJ...

I read a topic for this. Article..Kinda retro :f_biggrin:..4bet/5bet spots..And there JJ are not even mentioned..Top range + Axs for 5bet bluff. Only this...But this is a "retro article". The times was different. The ranges was way more polarized...But I think this guy is very unlikely to do that with JJ...And our Jacks, as I said earlier, they just block "his JJ", that's it. And also they are blocking AJo, which (as I said) is preferable hand for bluff here..And many combos, because it's off suit...Actually 66 need just a little to be "equal" to JJ. But no one will even think about calling with 66. Or raising...Why is that?

But I think no one will shove vs UTG in this situation. With weaker hand than JJ...

That's you. You seem to be very arrogant, underestimating the other players
Dont judge about the other people by yourself. This will cost you a lot of money

I prefer flat calling my entire range but i am cappable of making 5bet bluffs as well. Not everybody has the guts to pull the trigger especially deep 350+ bb. But there are some dynamics between hero and V. They seem to sparring each other.

Emotions play big role of what to or not to do as well. Soon or later one with them will crack and start making spewy moves (most of the time). Nobody like to lose money against a comptetitor.

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135

Take it easy guys. I'm not that crazy. I had a pretty good read that this player overplays suited Ace hands, like AJs/A5s.

Then i dont fully agree with the 5bet shove. By "fully" i mean given the info you should start 5bet bluff as well or flatting your top range like JJ-AA even 88-TT, the more preferable option to me. The idea is that with 5bet you chase his bluffs. While by flatting you could rope him postflop. This will keep your range uncapped as well. The negative side is that you give him a chance to crack your hand. So you really need V to be aggressive postflop.

You have to choose at some point how are you going to play. Adding 5bet bluffs to your range or start flatting your top range.

In some ways, this reg is bad because he 4bet called it off with AQs on BB one time vs my KK. I think he lost.

Originally posted by Lemnon95

Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135

Take it easy guys. I'm not that crazy. I had a pretty good read that this player overplays suited Ace hands, like AJs/A5s.

Then i dont fully agree with the 5bet shove. By "fully" i mean given the info you should start 5bet bluff as well or flatting your top range like JJ-AA even 88-TT, the more preferable option to me. The idea is that with 5bet you chase his bluffs. While by flatting you could rope him postflop. This will keep your range uncapped as well. The negative side is that you give him a chance to crack your hand. So you really need V to be aggressive postflop.

You have to choose at some point how are you going to play. Adding 5bet bluffs to your range or start flatting your top range.

Exactly!!
That's why I said in my previous answer: "You can call for a 2.5x 4bet, with the intent of folding on every A or K high flops, and probably shoving yourself on other flops."

I do that sometimes too. I just played this hand today.

lol...What is this? For protection? It's not for "value and protection", it's just "protection". Bluff with two outs. Two outs x 2...And the call pre...Ok, whatever..But just think about this..If you have some other hand, i don't know, sevens...How this will be different? Again, you are blocking TT (weird hand is his range, probably he will just shove pre, or call, or fold) and maybe he can call lets say with A8s, if he have this hand. And still he have outs...I never saw "shove for protection". I saw "value and protection", never saw only "protection". But this is exactly "shove for protection"...

Also , this is OOP and you can call this "stop and go"...Will be very weird with such a hand, but OK, "stop and go"...With the JJ you are IP...

there is such a thing "stop and go" , but in the tournament play, you have some hand with low equity preflop (you don't want to shove without FE), you call , if you hit something, then "Go"...More like "semi bluff" than "protection"...But there is a big difference. He can call with weaker hand..It more like "value and protection", not just "protection" But even if it is only "protection", the hands hit the flop very often...Draw, pair...With TT ...I don't know. Never saw such a play, this must be shove or fold pre...Never saw this...From regulars..

Originally posted by NoNameHypo
lol...What is this? For protection? It's not for "value and protection", it's just "protection". Bluff with two outs. Two outs x 2...And the call pre...Ok, whatever..But just think about this..If you have some other hand, i don't know, sevens...How this will be different? Again, you are blocking TT (weird hand is his range, probably he will just shove pre, or call, or fold) and maybe he can call lets say with A8s, if he have this hand. And still he have outs...I never saw "shove for protection". I saw "value and protection", never saw only "protection". But this is exactly "shove for protection"...

Also , this is OOP and you can call this "stop and go"...Will be very weird with such a hand, but OK, "stop and go"...With the JJ you are IP...

I shoved on flat flop with TT because it is actually incorrect to call that off with AKo but you should've seen the villain, he just sat there and thought about it forever and ever. lmao

You shove for value then...You don't have enough equity to do that. Not even close..."Semi-bluff" :f_biggrin:..What is this , mate? This play is insane imo

Ok, "value and protection"...But it's just weird..You can bet for "value and protection" without 53-54% equity in the hand, but we are talking for higher SPR, possible draws...

i think you can do that with random hand with similar results...It's not some "conventional" strategy, looks very fishy...We can say "the pot is too big , we have enough pot odds to shove here", but if you shove pre flop can't be worse...No way...