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[Closed] Cashout => Doomswitched Theory

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Originally posted by Fongie

Originally posted by inf4my
I love how you assume that I must be a losing player just because I'm not naive enough to think that these websites are 100% legitimate.

You just don't realise how great variance can be.

Most people who aren't deep into mathimatics cant understand how much deviation there can be... the smaller the sample the higher the deviation.

The human brain looks for patterns even when there are none.. you may think you see something there but it is probably nothing.


andreibalint
Joined: 11.04.2009

KK vs AA is such a classic. Truth it i feel it happenes more often than once in every 220*(220/9) hands which is like 5377 hands if i calculated right.

Admitting that online poker is rigged is admitting you are simply weak (psychologically speaking). Is admitting that you are not able to accept the fact that you are losing. That you are a big LOOOSER. Your only escape is to pass the blame to someone/something else. Of course you should think on the long turn, but the fact is you're still losing day after day after day... And you feel more worthless and somehow a failure day after day after day...

It's a matter of self-esteem and confidence. I don't think anybody with strong confidence in himself says poker is rigged.


Kimber88
Joined: 08.07.2008

Originally posted by inf4my
I'm not even going to read those replies, because it's the same nonsense that gets spewed repeatedly by people who just refuse to believe that there is corruption in this world.

Congratulations on making a complete idiot out of yourself...


Fongie
Joined: 02.12.2006

Originally posted by KidPokersKid

Most people who aren't deep into mathimatics cant understand how much deviation there can be...

Yeah, I don't think I understand it I just accept it :f_grin:


SalamiandCheese
Joined: 16.07.2008

^^ +1

Or at least I'm trying to just accept it. Sometimes it's tough... :f_biggrin:


MikeB570
Joined: 26.05.2009

I didn't read all of the replies but I just cashed out and had mostly winning sessions since then.

If you believe in this so-called cashout doomswitch. The first bad beat or losing session you have after you cashout you're going to say "Ah!!! It's because I cashed out!!!" But if you have a winning session the whole week after you cash out you forget all about it.


Originally posted by Fongie

Originally posted by inf4my
I love how you assume that I must be a losing player just because I'm not naive enough to think that these websites are 100% legitimate.

Sorry, but we saw the hands you posted in your last downswing thread. Also, your KK vs AA logic is easily overcome by the fact that you play FR. FR tables are as a general tight, and most people only go all in preflop with the very strongest range. So when you get action preflop with KK on a FR table, villain is mostly going to be holding a strong hand (assuming he's not a fish of course). It only makes sense right.. you don't go all in preflop with a very wide range either do you?

Lastly, look at your samplesize. If you lost 4 stacks in 500 hands, would you call yourself a losing player? Well, I know you wouldn't, but I hope you see how silly it would be. So how can you start juding your AA vs KK or KK vs AA frequency on the same samplesize as you would completely ignore a losing streak due to variance?

You just don't realise how great variance can be.

I can't believe a coach would say something like this.

You saw one of my 100,000 hands and based on that one hand, which was situational btw, you make a judgement on my skill level?

I ran $50 into $900 over 100,000 hands. I think that puts me above 90% of the player base automatically so please, spare me.

Your example makes no sense at all. What difference does it make that I'm playing FR? The odds of AA and KK being dealt in the same hand is ~4% regardless of the structure.

Yes, when someone gives you action at FR, it usually means a very strong hand. That is true of course. But the chance that someone has AA at the SAME TIME that I've been dealt KK is still going to be 4% no matter what, so your example like I said makes no sense.

As far as my sample size goes, everyone in this thread has mistakenly assumed that my entire theory is based on that sample. I mentioned those stats simply as an interesting side note.

I don't think the sites are rigged because of my AA vs KK stats. I think they are rigged because of the type of world we live in, and the fact that there is no good reason for them NOT to rig the cards.

They operate outside the law, because the industry is unregulated.

Slightly modifying probabilities would be almost impossible to detect because it can always be blamed on variance.

Other sites have already been caught, and before conclusive proof was provided, the VAST majority of players refused to believe it was true.

There are no consequences for messing with the probabilities, evidenced by the fact that UB and AP are still in business and doing just fine, and they committed a much more vile offence.

Capitalists throughout history have proven time and time again that when there's money to be made through corruption, they WILL take advantage of it. The most recent example of this is the economic meltdown in the US which was caused almost soley by high level investment bankers and politicians who saw a way to exploit the taxpayers and took advantage of it.

It's these overwhelming facts that lead me to doubt the integrity of these rooms. The sample size was just an afterthought.


Originally posted by inf4my
Your example makes no sense at all. What difference does it make that I'm playing FR? The odds of AA and KK being dealt in the same hand is ~4% regardless of the structure.

no, it's not.
SH you have 5 people who can hold AA and FR you have 9

edit:
anyway, your sample perfectly shows the variance.
just look at the fact you only got KK vs your AA 7 times.
if AA vs KK was being dealt more, your KK vs AA should be as high as your AA vs KK ratio.


Actually you're right, it's around 4% at FR, and it's even less probable at 6max, around 2.5%

Still, what he said makes no sense because he was suggesting that the tight ranges of the players at FR would result in more KK vs AA scenarios which is completely false.

Even if every player at every table played with stats of 1/1 and only went all in with KK/AA, I should still only see it 4% of the time.

Statistically I should see it 1 in every 670 hands among myself and other players at my tables. I don't have any way to filter for this stat but I am positive that I see it at least 5 times per day on average which is way more often than normal.

Anyway these stat arguments are pointless and now I'm sorry I even brought it up. I don't have a big enough sample, and I never will. The only way we can refer to stats is to pool together the stats of the entire poker room as a whole and examine how often this hand is dealt. Something that will never happen.


just from your sample:
AA vs KK ~5% of times you were dealt AA or KK.
not that far from the expected odds i would think.

and yes, the fact that people play tighter isn't going to chance the odds of AA vs KK, but it will make it seem more frequent, since those are the only hands that are going to call or raise your preflop 3/4-bets.
it's all about perception. you also (and i'm sure most of us at times) based your judgement on a feeling you got from playing, and not on the 5% in your sample.


Fongie
Joined: 02.12.2006

Originally posted by inf4my
You saw one of my 100,000 hands and based on that one hand, which was situational btw, you make a judgement on my skill level?

Sorry if it comes across as harsh (and maybe insulting), but it's not. You posted several hands and any coach would agree with me that you have big leaks from looking at those hands only. Get a second opinion if you don't believe me!
(by the way, is it SSS or BSS you play?! You seem to have different stacksizes in the hands)

I ran $50 into $900 over 100,000 hands. I think that puts me above 90% of the player base automatically so please, spare me.

Good job. But thinking you don't need to improve your game is extremely narrow-minded.

Your example makes no sense at all. What difference does it make that I'm playing FR? The odds of AA and KK being dealt in the same hand is ~4% regardless of the structure.

Yes, when someone gives you action at FR, it usually means a very strong hand. That is true of course. But the chance that someone has AA at the SAME TIME that I've been dealt KK is still going to be 4% no matter what, so your example like I said makes no sense.

No, no. My reasoning is that it feels like you run into a cooler more often because you don't remember the times you win the pot preflop or with a c-bet on the flop - you remember when you did get that preflop action you wanted and then ran into a cooler. You still posted in your old thread that your AA/KK wins 90% of the times, and have won you money.
The FR vs SH reasoning is not really important, but if you take 100 preflop all in scenarios in FR and compare it to 100 from SH, you are going to have more KK vs AA in FR than in SH. Why? Because people shove lighter in SH games.

It's these overwhelming facts that lead me to doubt the integrity of these rooms. The sample size was just an afterthought.

Your "overwhelming facts" which are not facts but theories you make without any good logic behind them except "man is vile", can easily be overcome by one all-powerful argument...
The poker sites do not make more money by rigging the site
It just doesn't make sense to rig a game where the money goes from player to player, with a set fee that the site gets no matter who wins the pot.

I should know better than responding to "rigged" threads :P


Fair enough. We will re-visit this topic in 5 years and see who was right.

I knew the sites were corrupt 10 years ago when poker burst onto the scene, and since that time several of them have been busted.

In fact, I had this exact same argument on www.pokerroom.com back in 2003. Go check who was right about that one...


If you think its rigged.. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STLL PLAYING?!?!?... you have posts defending that view so why don't you go cash out your roll and play live and see how high your variance will be... You'll end up running into a rigged game if you play enough live poker as well, I've heard a lot of stories.


I play live every single weekend and I've made well over 10k at NL500

I continue to play online because I enjoy the game. It's not really about the money. I am rolled for NL1000 but I decided to start at NL2 and see how far I could get.

Even though the sites are corrupt, I know the limits are beatable and I'm doing it for the challenge and the enjoyment.


HannesNL
Joined: 19.11.2008

Retards ITT.

I ran $50 into $900 over 100,000 hands. I think that puts me above 90% of the player base automatically so please, spare me.

Just variance, the pokerroom does not want you to leave, because you are so handsome. srsly, if you are all about rigged pokersites etc. and you start baffling about your wins in 100k hands, it could be the pokerplatform supporting starting players, RIGHT?


Infamy-

Please tell me where you play live. If you can make 10k playing the way you do, I am in!!!

Apart from this I don't see a benefit to rigging cards because

A- You get the same amount of money anyway.

B- You may either discourage/encourage people by randomly distributing bad beats/coolers (assuming this is possible), but sites couldn't possibly know whom they are giving these bad beats to. It would probably cost MORE for them to figure out whom to give bad beats/coolers to in order to "keep them in" than to just leave things normal.

C. Have you realized that fish actually stay in MORE when they lose money because they feel like they need it back?

I understand that there are incentives for corruption in general but this particular form of corruption no because (A) it doesn't make a difference. And B it would take A LOT of money to develop a software which could efficiently do this kind of manipulation.

Also, do this and you might realize how stupid you are being: Calculate the probability that over a sample size of 5,000 hands (your size approx) your exact hand distribution corresponds to the expected distribution.....

I would be more inclined to believe poker is rigged if everyone had recieved exactly the number of AAs and KKs and QQs as could be statistically predicted.


I would say that every site that PS.com is affiliated with have their RNGs independently audited to make sure it's random most of these companies are ones you probably havn't heared of but i did notice that PWC did one for Ladbrokes and they are a massive company. Ladbrokes also publish statistics each month of the hands dealt.

http://poker.ladbrokes.com/en/card-statistics


Waiboy
Joined: 18.09.2008

Why is it I just don't enjoy these threads as much as I used to. :f_frown:


If you believe in the Cashout-Doomswitch theory, even just a bit, then it might become a self-fulfilling prophecy, you start playing badly and the downswing becomes even worse.

Besides, by definition, a downswing comes after an upswing, and I think it is safe to say that it is more probable to cashout during an upswing and therefore more probable that a downswing will follow, independently from the cashout event, of course.


Berzerger
Joined: 24.03.2008

Originally posted by yelongrenps
Besides, by definition, a downswing comes after an upswing, and I think it is safe to say that it is more probable to cashout during an upswing and therefore more probable that a downswing will follow.

Wrong. Up/downswing is an event of the past, you can only conclude that it exists by looking at hands you've played in the past. It does not have any effect on the results to come. If you're flipping a coin, just because you've coincidentally tossed heads 10 times in a row doesn't give you any better chance to throw tails next.