[Closed] NL200- considerations on 4bet

"Villain 23/18 and squeezin every single hand."

By knowing this info I would call it, why would you turn this hand into bluff, or you would 4 bet/call it?

I don't like calling because AT doesn't play so well post flop. We're gonna find ourselves with 2nd pair way too often.

I'd much rather 4b to collect dead money. Since we know his range is fairly loose, he's gonna be folding a bunch of hands. And he'll incorrectly do so, because there are many hands with ~40% equity against us, such as suited connectors, broadways and stuff like that. He probably folds the lowers pockets pairs also.
Once we 4b, we can never fold obviously, because the pot is huge and we're commited, even against a range such as 88+, AJ+.

So I like 4b/c if you believe he's going crazy with his squeezes.

Originally posted by caltabiano
I don't like calling because AT doesn't play so well post flop. We're gonna find ourselves with 2nd pair way too often.

I'd much rather 4b to collect dead money. Since we know his range is fairly loose, he's gonna be folding a bunch of hands. And he'll incorrectly do so, because there are many hands with ~40% equity against us, such as suited connectors, broadways and stuff like that. He probably folds the lowers pockets pairs also.
Once we 4b, we can never fold obviously, because the pot is huge and we're commited, even against a range such as 88+, AJ+.

So I like 4b/c if you believe he's going crazy with his squeezes.

+1

I'd just shove it in.
A call can get you in very tough spots if another player behind you opts to overcall and you'll have to fold to cbets a lot anyway.

Since every 4bet commits you i'd shove it in to prevent the opponent from doing "stupid" things which in this spot are good vs your particular hand, i.e. shoving in any pair 22+ etc.

I think I like 4b better, because most of the "stupid things" are good for us.

He's probably calling at the very least 99+, but I suppose he might even go with 77 or 88, no matter if we shove or if we 4b. I suppose he's aware of his image.
So, if he's gonna get stupid with 22, he might as well get stupid with stuff like 89s or 84s or A2o, A7o, etc. And since there are many more unpaired hands than paired hands he can get stupid with, I like 4betting better.

What do you think?

We only risked $7 so far, why would we risk our whole stack with a 4 bet shove? Strongsl wrote only that the opponent likes sqezze every single hand , but I think it doesn't mean that Villain would call a shove with much more worse hand than ATo. With an add. info eg. likes to call preflop shoves loose, the situation would be changed, but without this I would just fold it.

Originally posted by Peetfeef
We only risked $7 so far, why would we risk our whole stack with a 4 bet shove? Strongsl wrote only that the opponent likes sqezze every single hand , but I think it doesn't mean that Villain would call a shove with much more worse hand than ATo. With an add. info eg. likes to call preflop shoves loose, the situation would be changed, but without this I would just fold it.

But the point is that he's gonna be folding a lot to a 4b. We're not really 4betting for value. We want him to fold, BUT if he does decided to go broke loose, we're not doing so bad equity wise. If we let him run us over, while we wait for our aces, when we do get them, he's just gonna fold his A2o.

A simple EV calc would show how profitable this move would be. There's $57 in the pot, so whenever he folds, we get $57. And whenever the money goes in, we lose about (I'm assuming we have 29% equity):

$418*.29 - $198 = $-77

Being f the % he folds and s the percentage he shoves:
f + s = 1 (s = 1 - f)
57f - 77s = 0
57f - 77(1 - f) = 0
57f +77f = 77
134f = 77
f = 57%

If he's squeezing every single hand like, strongsl said, I think we can safely assume he's gonna be folding 57% of his range.
And then there's always the chance that he's gonna think he has some fold equity with a 5b and just ship his junk hand and then we profit even more.

Not only I think it's a profitable move, it's also important for table image, as you cannot just let people run you over.

caltabiano:
You are right, I share your opinion, but personally I would play in this way after a note that this villain is capable of shoving to our 4 bet with trashes. (Strongsl didn't write that) .Because If he pushes eg with 22+ ATs+ than there are too many situation when we are behind . But if there are trashes involved too than in my view this would make profitable 4/bet call for us.

ps: perhaps I'm not right, and gonna judge it in 6 months differently, but now this is how I see it:)

Originally posted by Peetfeef
caltabiano:
You are right, I share your opinion, but personally I would play in this way after a note that this villain is capable of shoving to our 4 bet with trashes. (Strongsl didn't write that) .Because If he pushes eg with 22+ ATs+ than there are too many situation when we are behind . But if there are trashes involved too than in my view this would make profitable 4/bet call for us.

ps: perhaps I'm not right, and gonna judge it in 6 months differently, but now this is how I see it:)

@Calta
This is what i meant, i don't expect him to just randomly shove some cards he happens to has.

My reasoning for shoving over his squeeze is that he either shoves a strong valuerange in which case it makes no difference whether we 4bet or shove because we'll be getting it in vs the same range of hands.

OR he's shoving light with a "value"-range of 22+,Aj+,KQ (+- some hands but usually not toal trash).
In this case we want to be the ones shoving because if we 4bet he might think about his foldequity and shove 22 but if we shove ourselves he's likely to fold it in which case we win money because he's folding his equity share.

Originally posted by Peetfeef
We only risked $7 so far, why would we risk our whole stack with a 4 bet shove?

You shouldn't base your decision about what to do on how much money you already invested in the pot.
The only reason for or against an action is whether it has the maximum EV or not.

And Caltas calculation above shows that a 4bet or shove is very likely to have a positive expectation.