[Closed] Where did that AK shove thing come from???

AK shove pre is a tourney play rather than a cash game play.

justifications for it include:

-player image
-amount of cash in pot from blinds relative to your stack

essentially its an aggressive semi-bluff, which could be considered a steal, but leaves you in enough shape to make it +EV when somebody calls you.

the dead money/blinds justify shoving.

include fold equity and it is +ev and as u said, even if someone calls u have most of the time a coinflip.

cash games: i wouldn't open shove it for 100BB, but say u open to 4 BB, someone raises to 15BB or so, and u shove (this is not the best play in the world, i know, but just assume)
do you think your opponent will call 99? some of them even lay down JJ or so which is obv. terrible once they did 3bet so much, but this is how guys play

never underestimate fold equity, a key point in the "+ev"ness of shoves

lol if it was cash in that example i'd just call. I don't think its worth the risk ♦

Yeah guys, thanks for the insights! ♠_biggrin:

I wrote this post mainly because of my recent pre-flop shoves with AK were not too successful, even when villain showed down 77, TT or JJ.

Last night I had AK on BU, loose guy raised 4BB from MP, I reraised to 12BB and he shoved his +-100BB stack... I had to fold! Than I kept wondering whether what I did was right.

Originally posted by blackops888
Yeah guys, thanks for the insights! ♠_biggrin:

I wrote this post mainly because of my recent pre-flop shoves with AK were not too successful, even when villain showed down 77, TT or JJ.

Last night I had AK on BU, loose guy raised 4BB from MP, I reraised to 12BB and he shoved his +-100BB stack... I had to fold! Than I kept wondering whether what I did was right.

It depends on villain but that doesnt sound right. People on BB and SB gets in weird wars and I think shoving AK there would be profitable against most. (Unless in 900 hands he never 3 betted)

lol

I'm sure you can find threads like these if you search a bit.. but the short answer is: You don't make the money with AK when you are all in against someone, you make it when you 3bet, 4bet, or shove, and they fold.

Originally posted by Fongie
I'm sure you can find threads like these if you search a bit.. but the short answer is: You don't make the money with AK when you are all in against someone, you make it when you 3bet, 4bet, or shove, and they fold.

+1

Actually you do on AK money, if you play agaist shortstack who are willing to call you allin with AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, etc.

Funktor

Originally posted by conall88
lol if it was cash in that example i'd just call. I don't think its worth the risk ♦

If it is good for a call, it's great for a raise. Especially if you're in position imho.

Ok here's a question: lets say I raise AK from the button or cutoff to 3BB, and get reraised from the BB to say, 12-14BB. Now, obviously players are making this resteal move a little loose because they give the position raiser little credit for a very good hand. But since I do have a quite premium hand, what is the best thing to do here?

I think folding is -EV, but should I call, push, or just reraise to 35-40BB? I'm never exactly sure here.

Well, if the BB is not the total nit, you can easily 4bet it to 30,32 bb and call his allin, if he pushes.

table dynamics

Yeah if his stats show him as non nitty, I agree with the playing back idea... but why just reraise to 30-35BB if you're prepared to call his all-in? I think once he's all-inned, you're probably behind, or a coin flip at best, because he's probably not doing that with AQ unless he's just terrible. But by that point you're a little pot committed....

Then again, pushing all in when he's only reraised to 10-14BB sounds a little extreme

Originally posted by nitaidean
why just reraise to 30-35BB if you're prepared to call his all-in?

You are reraising for value because you believe your hand is best, not as a bluff to generate huge fold equity. If you thought he would only call your shove with a better hand than yours would you still shove?

WRONG! Imo. You 3bet to 30bb to let him have the oppertunity to bluffshove all in should he feel inclined to. If you shove, you allow him the easy way out with a fold, with a raise to 30bb you allow him to make a mistake and think he can still get you off a hand and stuff his remaining money in the pot.

And you also want to do the 4 bet itself as bluff with weak hands. Now you also have to do this with the strong hands, other wise it is quite easy to play you.

All this is true, but I'm assuming we're playing NL25 and below, and I don't think you'll have too many players there shoving your 4bet without something great. Generally those stakes require ABC poker.

Though you have a point, maybe the player is a real donk (though in that case you'd see that in his stats and of course never fold to his push) and he might try to repush your 4bet because he doesn't feel like losing this hand. And the other point that, he might just call the 4bet and then you play a big pot with AK in position, which is definitely +EV, also makes sense.