[Closed] The Rake

I promised myself I won't post another word in this thread, cause people just don't pay attention to my previous posts and I have to repeat stuff over and over again. But, meh, ok.

So, I'm gonna repeat it over again:

Originally posted by roswellx
Do you think corrupt governments, ministers care about players, oh we should limit this company profit so our citizens can win more? I don't think so, they are more interested in getting the tax from the poker rooms and also players (e.g. US, Sweden).

I don't know about goverments and ministers but Competition Authorities certainally shoud, in fact they are obliged to. Glad you mentioned Sweden. I recently read that there's a state run poker room in Sweden, called Svenska Spela Poker, which is charging 2,5% rake. They are rather popular in Sweden and they are doing fine on the financial side. They don't need any state support to keep it going. Guess they use 250 000$ servers instead of the 500 000$ ones.

Originally posted by roswellx
You know it's kinda interesting.. Now complaining about rake and defending that lowering rake would make everybody happier (richer?)... Let's assume they lowered the rake, what are you going to say later oh come on now the poker room is making even more money.

They used to make X $ every year now they make X + Y $ ( Y >0).

If they would make the same amount of money with 3X larger player pool and 10% profit margin, I'd be happy for them. I'd might send them a Christmas card.

Originally posted by roswellx
Who does pay actually for regulars higher winrate and companies higher profits?

The

The fish are only ones that inject money in the circulation, true. Now, about paying for higher winrate, well. The ratio between a winning players winrate and losing players (negative) winrate stays the same regardless of the rake payd. The only difference - the higher the rake, the less you win and the more fish loses. You get less money, fish goes broke faster. Fish gets dissapointed faster. Fish goes around bashing poker for how rigged and fucked up it is - equals - less popularity for poker, less new fish.

Originally posted by roswellx
It's just basic decision, play or don't. That simple... If you don't like just don't play, you are free to make your own poker business nobody stops you. Who would not like to see his pockets filling faster?

No, it's not that simple. In fact, it's pretty damn hard, because traffic generates traffic and traffic is what you don't have when you start a new poker room. If you woud start a company that produces Audi-quality cars for half the price of an Audi, it would be global success. If you start a poker room with half the rake charged, nobody plays there, because there's no traffic. Large poker rooms know that. They have traffic, they have their market share and they understand that lowering the rake wouldn't benefit their oligopolys ecosystem. They could lower the rake and still maintain a decent profit margin, but they don't. It's called collusion.

If someobdy asks any of the above mentioned questions again, I'll post the picture again. You have been warned.

I don't know about governments and ministers but Competition Authorities certainally should, in fact they are obliged to. Glad you mentioned Sweden. I recently read that there's a state run poker room in Sweden, called Svenska Spela Poker, which is charging 2,5% rake. They are rather popular in Sweden and they are doing fine on the financial side. They don't need any state support to keep it going. Guess they use 250 000$ servers instead of the 500 000$ ones.

If they would make the same amount of money with 3X larger player pool and 10% profit margin, I'd be happy for them. I'd might send them a Christmas card.

You see everybody is doing a maximin except for the fish... Governments, poker sites, regulars, advertisers.. You can keep pushing for small profits until you bust all fishes in the world or regulars quit playing because of the time invested to win few $$.. Instead of trying to bring whole world to think like you think why don't you make a research and prove that there is a better solution for everbody with numbers or maybe you can move to Sweden or find a VPN and play thus you could pay for half of your mortgage (%2.5 rake?) from there ?

If you want to convince people, you should come with concrete numbers. People don't believe in do this it will be cheaper (more profit) for everybody. Actually I gave you a brilliant marketing idea. Prove it will be better for all then you'll have the hell of traffic believe me. If people don't want to believe your math it's either wrong or they are stupid and you're wasting your time trying to convince people who are not ready to understand your math.

One more thing, if you want to try to convince people you should sell your shit patiently and wisely without posting some nice painting coz I never heard someone to succeed by marketing how stupid you are to play there and call them to join your force. If there are it would be a new experience for me

@roswellx
OK

@NightFrostaSS
Didn't know you paint! Nice

I was inspired by this thread and just created this petition http://www.petitiononline.com/AntiRake/petition.html

Hmm, I think, I'm paying too much for a BMW. It doesn't worth 30k $. The material used in it is already belong to Earth since Earth doesn't belong to anybody then I think a BMW should be something like 100$. I should probably do this for everything in life to get my ultimate goal. A resource based economy. I really like the concept man, really no sarcasm. Waiting for the 3rd movie impatiently.

This is the true power being more in numbers

You created the petition and you didn't sign it? I checked it after 10mins, it had 0 signs. Come up with real numbers from perspective of all sides ! Not only regulars!

Originally posted by Reanimater

Originally posted by Coffeehouse
Reanimater. Your numbers are only assumptions and mostly wrong. I play on Stars since 2003 and they make more cash than they can carry.

Where do you get that a good server costs half a million? WoW charges people 15 dollar a month. How can they do it and be filthy rich with it? Less cpu need? lol?

Stars is one of the nicer poker companies but their profit is CRIMINALLY high.

stop comparing WoW to pokerstars.

the money raised in rake go somewhere - guaranteed tournaments, prize packages to tournaments, live events and so on. many of those tournaments do not cover for their prizes.

furthermore, you have a lot of staff to pay for.

yes the company makes profit, but you CANNOT claim that they should not because you re grinding and paying lots of rake.

another thing which you need to consider is basic - companies never offer you the best that you can deliver. they prefer making progress over time in order to keep you hooked up. you will not get the best graphics or software, until a competitor makes a move, then everybody follows.

you guys really have no basic understanding of how a business is run, i should go on and on about some core principles, which you never consider while writing your comments.

actually pokerstrategy should really consider their advertising policy. bringing in more players who do not deposit and can play good poker is not something which the poker industry needs.

i hate to say it but everytime i see a pokerstrategy ad on the internet i think about how lame the marketing/chief guys are.

I paid over $100k in rake in my life, and my winnings are like $50k. That means I would have made $150k if I didnt had to pay any rake.

I would instaleave ftp or stars if there was a pokerplatform with a cheap rakesystem, I would not even care much about the software, more about the amount of players.

I think 90% of good winning players agree with me.

PS: So many pointless and dumb posts ITT, seriously... first 2 pages were good tho

I think everyone defending player (even the high volume ones) paying more than 100$/month for playing the game is doing it because they're affiliates or stupid. WoW is able to offer a much much MUCH better game for 30$/month or whatever it is.

It's the market my friend

I would prefer it if the rake were a monthly fee simply as i rake a lot more than that and it is true poker sites provide less than games which have a monthyl charge but I guess it's too late to change now and we are stuck with the current model.

However what percentage of players even rake over something like $50 in a month? I am doubtful the majority do and so we are making the fish pay more on this system.

Ill really need to improve my winrate in micros :/

Simulation of 100% rakeback: (maybe its by dealt method and its not so accurate)

Epic, every big forum is busy with finding solutions for this multimillion ripoff market.

A few members of liquid are busy with building software, another couple of members are doing the promotion and advertising already. Ofcourse posting here and on 2+2 is already a big step to make pokerstars and full tilt poker see that the rake we pay is just too much. But I think they will not change the rake untill the players are leaving.

The new rakefree pokerplatform will be powered by donations. To maintain the rakefree pokerplatform is probably by paying a monthly fee.

I've just started taking poker seriously, and I'm looking to build a bank roll. After 300 SNG's playing 1.00+.20 9 handed SNG's, I've done nothing more than break even. That's a 20% rake! Wouldn't it make sense to lower the rake at the lower limits? Surly, it would be more profitable to pokerstars if I was breaking even at the 5 doller SNG's?

20% rake is ridiculous. I'd have 30 dollers profit if the rake was 10%, as it should be. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, it's a business, and until something is launched that rivals and endangers these bigger poker rooms, nothing will change.

The big poker sites are the goverment and rake is their tax. I totally aggree it is high but it pays for the ads and other gimmicks to attract the fish(The big game or Poker after dark) security and a computer system to handle 1000s of hand delt every minute. You totaly have the right to question and complain about rake and other problems. This will keep pokersites from getting out of hand but in the long run as long as the majority see no problem(or don´t care) then not much will change.

Best thing to do is learn how to play poker for maximum profit with the current situation.

Anyways enough said. I will get back to reading other threads and articals here @ PS(which rakes pays for) then go watch todays episode of "The Big Game".(also from rake)

I would like to know how much of our rake they are spending on advertisements, promotions and other stuff; and how much of rake they keep ♠_evil:

Originally posted by HannesNL
Epic, every big forum is busy with finding solutions for this multimillion ripoff market.

A few members of liquid are busy with building software, another couple of members are doing the promotion and advertising already. Ofcourse posting here and on 2+2 is already a big step to make pokerstars and full tilt poker see that the rake we pay is just too much. But I think they will not change the rake untill the players are leaving.

The new rakefree pokerplatform will be powered by donations. To maintain the rakefree pokerplatform is probably by paying a monthly fee.

I think there is no need to make rakefree pokerplatform, just decrease its percentage, for example, 10%-5% to 1-2%...

I dont understand, do poker sites have really so small profit? I think they can really profit from 0.1% rake too, if thousands of people play at same time... just 50% rake decrease would be great for every player, there would be more winning players, and site would still have high profit.

Sure, every site wanna as big profit as possible, but there could be more small-rake sites, 0.5% can still be millions, cant it?

PokerStars is a multi-million pound corporation. I'm guessing it's PROFITS after advertising, free rolls etc is 50+Million each year. I may be totally wrong though. They know that we'll pay it, so they're gonna charge it.

If anyone plays console games, they'll know that Microsoft just raised their subscription costs for live by a dollar or two a month. Nothing costs more, they still earn millions, they simply did it knowing people would still pay, and it's the same here.

Originally posted by SeanKelly
PokerStars is a multi-million pound corporation. I'm guessing it's PROFITS after advertising, free rolls etc is 50+Million each year. I may be totally wrong though.

You are totally wrong. PokerStars has estimated annual revenue of $1.4 billion and profit of $500 million

Originally posted by SeanKelly
PokerStars is a multi-million pound corporation. I'm guessing it's PROFITS after advertising, free rolls etc is 50+Million each year. I may be totally wrong though. They know that we'll pay it, so they're gonna charge it.

If anyone plays console games, they'll know that Microsoft just raised their subscription costs for live by a dollar or two a month. Nothing costs more, they still earn millions, they simply did it knowing people would still pay, and it's the same here.

I think the problem is many people don't realise how much they are paying. Since the majority of poker players doesn't use tracking software they don't know how much rake they have paid. They just see a few cents in big pots and that's it. (i have no proof most poker players don't use PTR or holdem manager or something similar. But i'm pretty sure very few casual players use them)

When people realise they are paying possibly $500 a month just to use the software and then compare it to other similar services like MMORPGS which use many times more bandwith then a simple card game only then people realise how rediculous it is to pay so much rake..

I've actually come to the conclusion that I won't build a bankroll palying micro stake SNG's. Think ccash games would rake less?