[Closed] KQs

You can't call his turn bet with just K-high. You don't have the right odds even if he only has top pair and both your overs are live. (Which is the absolute best case scenario here imo)

Originally posted by gedwashere91
You can't call his turn bet with just K-high. You don't have the right odds even if he only has top pair and both your overs are live. (Which is the absolute best case scenario here imo)

i agree, you should fold the turn here. the preflop raise and continuation bet on the flop are good according to me.

Hello,

Thanks for the info.

In this hand I was kind of sure, or lets say there is a big probability that
I am ahead with my KQ high therefore I called.

I know it may sounds kind of absurd but here is my line.

Pre-flop> his limp is definitely weakens. He was way to loose aggressive to trap. I was 3bet-ing him pre-flop a lot so, no point to start limping As, Ks Qs, when nobody gives you credit for hand.

On the flop> Cbet is fine imo. His cold call looked weird. He may slow play here if he flopped big but in line with his style of play and his shallow stack way more likely to 3bet push.

Turn> He open jamed on the blank 2d. This was very strange for me. I told for a while and I decided that its way more likely that he will be on some kind of draw with around 8 or 9 outs (I believe that if he had a monster draw, FD & STR draw, he would 3bet push flop) and he told that I didn't connect with the flop so I can't make the call with just A high.
On the turn I told that he was not slow playing on flop and then pushing the turn.

He was giving me around 1 to 1.7 on a call. So I decided to call.

Limp/call looks like a small or mediocre pocket pair 22-88 most of the time. Don't think you can call with two overcards with only card to go.

@Steelbrewer:

In general you are correct. And yet its style dependent.

But in this hand do u really think he has a pocket pair the way the hand developed?

Plus I didn't call hoping to hit! I called because I told I was ahead.

Well he may have 77 here and take such line.

Even if your "soul read" was correct this time and he had J10 or something I don't think that playing guessing game is +EV in the long term.

@Steelbrewer

I agree with you mate. Its marginal spot and they thend to be -EV.

In this case I had strong reads on him and I manage to put him on his exact hand.

Just wanted to hear second oppinion.

Appreciated!

Cheers,
V~

Shoving pre is optimal play here in my opinion.

Originally posted by dangermowse
Shoving pre is optimal play here in my opinion.

Sarcastic??
That's hugely overplaying your hand. We're going to be in position with a hand capable of hitting quite hard on the flop, there's no real reason to shove pre.

Because limping is bad, raise-folding is bad and there's 14% of eff stacks in the middle to steal.

Originally posted by dangermowse
Because limping is bad, raise-folding is bad and there's 14% of eff stacks in the middle to steal.

We are value-raising against most of their range, and there is NOTHING wrong with raise/folding at this stack depth.

Also 14% isnt right... I get 10.6% of effective stack = 250/2350 (sb has us covered so our whole stack is at risk).

Ah yes forgot to include sb fair enough. Raise folding is terrible versus the limper yes EXTREMELY. I still shove, most +ev play by far is my opinion anyway.

Shoving preflop for 23,5xBB is not an option, there is absolutely no worse hand that will call us and flipping for stacks with an average hand is far from perfect situation.
Such shove may be acceptable against a group of limpers (not a single one) from blinds but doing so as a BU vs 1 limper: shoving 2350 to win 250 with 2 players to act is not good solution.

I would rather flip with mp limper when he calls his 66 than raise and him not to fold to a cbet on most boards. I agree it's a pretty risky play but I'm a riskayyyy type o guy ♦ Also shoving is +ev and avoids post flop awkwardness at the same time.

Originally posted by dangermowse
I would rather flip with mp limper when he calls his 66 than raise and him not to fold to a cbet on most boards. I agree it's a pretty risky play but I'm a riskayyyy type o guy ♦ Also shoving is +ev and avoids post flop awkwardness at the same time.

So let me get this straight. You want to take a flip preflop, when you have the option of seeing a flop and getting paid off almost every time you hit TP? Because if he's limp/calling then calling every flop cbet with 66, that's exactly whats happening. If you cbet/fold when you miss you get away from the hand cheap, every other time you're getting all your chips in miles ahead.

Call me crazy but a c bet here is going to do nothing but put one of you all in by the turn.

This flops smacks a limp call range hard if it is a very laggy player. There are draws that are never
folding and as mentioned pockets, and even A rag hits with the rag which is not going anywhere.

I would prefer to check behind because of stack sizes and re-evaluate on the turn.

Otherwise you are building a big pot that will be hard to get away from.

Loose players with high AF tend to spew push like this constantly. Sometimes it is with ANY part of
the board and often it is with some bullshit air which you can be a head of but your unsure of
with just overs and no draw.

I would call his turn shove if I had ANY part of the board and he had high AF and was loose.

This type of player is giving me their chips in spots like this soo often its unreal.

Originally posted by 8979687
Call me crazy but a c bet here is going to do nothing but put one of you all in by the turn.

This flops smacks a limp call range hard if it is a very laggy player. There are draws that are never
folding and as mentioned pockets, and even A rag hits with the rag which is not going anywhere.

I would prefer to check behind because of stack sizes and re-evaluate on the turn.

Otherwise you are building a big pot that will be hard to get away from.

Loose players with high AF tend to spew push like this constantly. Sometimes it is with ANY part of
the board and often it is with some bullshit air which you can be a head of but your unsure of
with just overs and no draw.

^^^ This

That flop is the worst flop you could ever c-bet with just 2 overs.
Lots of players just auto c-bet in sngs and do not think about the board and the opponents range.

Also people saying shoving is terrible are flat out wrong. Not saying that is what I think is the most +EV move but it is not bad imo

I agree that shoving preflop can be ok. It's just unusual, and other plays might be better, but shoving seems much better than folding. Many players confuse "a play they are sure they would not make" with "a play which must be wrong by a lot." If shoving for 15 bb after one loose limper is reasonable, then shoving when the players have 15 bb, 19 bb, and 23.5 bb effective can't be too bad.

To the OP: You had a lot of very specific reads like that the Villain was a LAG who might float out of position, but you didn't provide those reads. Of course you are not going to get good feedback on whether your line was appropriate in context. Next time, say what information you had, or ask in what situations your line would make sense. Against an unknown player, the turn call will not win often.

personally im never shoving pre against anyone. sure it might be +EV if you fiddle with the ranges enough, but there are far better ways to play with 20BB eff stacks. its about balance and value.

dont cbet this board. its a horrible board to cbet against his l/c range.