[Closed] PLO200deep

Not a fan of the preflop call, but moving on.....

Sometimes I bet here, sometimes I check on the flop. Let's look at the various merits of each and analyse what CO could be doing.

So it's checked to you on the button, CO could be doing a little pot control on the flop with a reasonable hand he wants to see the turn and river with, such as AT98 with the T , he could also have a hand like AA, KK or QQ that has no redraw when he checks, obviously if he has something like T987 or 7654 then he has a reasonable draw he might not want to bloat.

So if we bet this flop it has to be full pot. Anything less on such a draw heavy board looks weak and might lead to a light check raise which puts us in an awkward spot (if we bet full pot and get check raised I expect it to be off a set or top 2 rather than a wrap hand since he must know we're not going anywhere).

If we check this flop, it gives us a hidden edge however. Let's say we check and a club hits, it's going to be hard for opponents to put us on the nuts, as who in their right mind would check a nut flush draw on the button after 2 opponents check in a bloated pot? We can probably bet full pot on turn and river and get called, since our line looks a little more like a naked ace than a nut flush.
We also can bluff the turn should an 8 or 9 hits. If we bet the flop it's going to be hard to represent the nuts should an 8 or 9 hit as it's not an obvious draw to bet on the flop (obviously our 2 blockers to the nuts can be bet on the turn, since you would check behind the flop with JT9 here).

Since we are 200 bets deep and I really expect BB to have our pair of jacks beat, I like either checking behind or betting full pot on the flop.

After we get check raised it puts us in a sick spot. We're flipping against T7, obviously a dog to a hand like TT (it's possible he checked the flop because he has hit it super hard and can afford for you to check behind, so it might be a hand like K :club:Q :heart:T :club:T

My main problem with the hand is that your 2 jack outs might not be good vs something like T987 and even if he is bluffing, I expect him to have at least QQ + clubs. The only pocket pairs you beat are 99 and 88, both which I don't see making this play and the only draw you're ahead of is something like J :heart:T :club:9 :diamond:8 which is still pretty much a stone cold flip.

If you flat call this flop, you're pretty much giving your hand away, i'm not sure you're ever flatting here with a set, it's either reraise or fold on the flop, so a flat call must be a flush draw.
With this in mind I probably make a sick fold on the flop, because I am super deep in position on CO. If I stack off here where i'm flipping at best, I risk losing having position on someone 200 bets deep which I obviously really want.

So I think you do have fold equity if you check behind on the flop, but as played I don't think there is a straight card that can hit that he will fold if you bet the turn or river.

Originally posted by Ribbo
Not a fan of the preflop call, but moving on.....

How would you play it?

Originally posted by Ribbo
So if we bet this flop it has to be full pot. Anything less on such a draw heavy board looks weak and might lead to a light check raise which puts us in an awkward spot

I disagree, by betting smaler with a balanced range have the advantage of:

- A cheaper price on our bluffs
- Keep the pot smaller so we have more room to play on later streets
- And keep weaker dominated draws draws in the pot

If the opponent starts 3-betting light we get more value with our strong hands and we can also adjust by getting in looser or float/rebluff lighter.

Since we are 200 bets deep and I really expect BB to have our pair of jacks beat, I like either checking behind or betting full pot on the flop.

Why do you think BB so often has a better hand and why should it stop us from betting the flop?

Originally posted by 8412king

Originally posted by Ribbo
So if we bet this flop it has to be full pot. Anything less on such a draw heavy board looks weak and might lead to a light check raise which puts us in an awkward spot

I disagree, by betting smaler with a balanced range have the advantage of:

- A cheaper price on our bluffs
- Keep the pot smaller so we have more room to play on later streets
- And keep weaker dominated draws draws in the pot

If the opponent starts 3-betting light we get more value with our strong hands and we can also adjust by getting in looser or float/rebluff lighter.

Since we are 200 bets deep and I really expect BB to have our pair of jacks beat, I like either checking behind or betting full pot on the flop.

Why do you think BB so often has a better hand and why should it stop us from betting the flop?

First of all, you're 200 bets deep. The plan with any PLO hand is that when you have the best hand, you want to get stacks in by the river. You can't do this with a weak bet in this particular spot, so all it does is look weak.

There are times when you want to half pot bet, and those are boards such as 663 or 987 rainbow. This is not one of those boards since there are a million draws showing and there is no way anyone with a set would bet half pot on the button. Your hand looks weak, the only time this would be wrong is if you've flopped an absolute monster (top set and nut flush draw), which is so rare, we don't need to care about balancing.

Anything less that full pot on the flop looks like a pot control bet done by a hand that either wants to keep it multiway or wants to see a cheap river for reasons already stated. You get a lot of hands to fold that have good equity against you and should be calling if not raising (such as 7543 no clubs, AA, KK, QQ) and you also find yourself getting check raised by pretty much the nuts and nothing else.

If you hit your flush on the turn after doing this, often you can check behind the turn to induce a bluff on the river, or if you get donked into, you can flat and represent the set.

When you miss, people will often donk the nuts if they spike it on the turn since the pot is super bloated now, so if they check you can fire again and often pick it up here as well. Very few players will slow play a strong hand on 2 streets so the strong flop bet allows for a big bet on the turn that is almost always successful at picking up the pot against opponents who will always have odds to call.

Make that 5 into a 9 preflop and I'm fine betting smaller on the flop with some disguised outs, but as it is, all of our outs are super obvious so this isn't a spot for finesse.

I think pre is good/standard.

On the flop I don't hate your bet but obviously potting it is good too. It depends on your range in this spot and how you play it. If you are stabbing a lot then a smaller bet works -- if you don't stab often then just go ahead and pot it.

As played I probably call and look to play a turn. If we had a bit more to go with out hand (say AJT9 w/ nut clubs) then I would re-pot and get it in, but with our hand we're in a little worse shape vs. a set (i think) and aren't dominating as many hands by as much.

Having the two Jacks is another great reason for calling. They can act as blockers on any 8 or 9 turn and you can get your opponent to fold a set (either on the turn or river) by bluffing when you miss your flush.

Originally posted by GodlikeRoy
As played I probably call and look to play a turn. If we had a bit more to go with out hand (say AJT9 w/ nut clubs) then I would re-pot and get it in, but with our hand we're in a little worse shape vs. a set (i think) and aren't dominating as many hands by as much.

So what is your bet/calling range here? Is it only draws or some weak made hands too?

Top 2 is definitely in my range for bet/calling the flop. It could also include sets but it really depends on our opponent and their turn habits.

But let's start with top 2 -- we aren't thrilled to get it in on the flop but if we call and a brick comes we're usually good to go -- plus if we hit a 4 outer we can get our opponent to barrel off repping a FH.

Oh, also AAxx w/ the Ac.

Originally posted by GodlikeRoy

Having the two Jacks is another great reason for calling. They can act as blockers on any 8 or 9 turn and you can get your opponent to fold a set (either on the turn or river) by bluffing when you miss your flush.

Or more to the point, when you have the jacks as blockers, you are going to have to barrel 2 streets to get him to fold a set. By bloating the pot on the flop, you're not leaving yourself behind enough to be able to pot the river. The bigger the pot is, the more likely you are to bluff at it after all, and if a set bets into you on the turn should an 8 or 9 hits there is no way you can raise turn and bet river.

A lot of people will check their sets on an 8 or 9 turn (to c/c then c/f river) in spots like this since it is so likely that we have a wrap ourselves.

They could also bet small on the turn and we call then check-fold or bet-fold to an 8 or 9 river.

They could also not have a set and instead have 2pair + flush draw and give up when straight cards hit.

Making him fold a set is only one possibility - maybe not even a highly likely one but considering future-street blockers should always be a consideration in a hand.