Originally posted by Ultifanatic
I hope some other players that play the micros that have also found out that they are not moving up will post in this blog, so that they can feel that they are not horrible people or poker players. So that they can feel comfortable with what ever limit they decide is decent for them to stay and and just enjoy playing poker.
Me too. If all the screaming and hollering hasn't scared those players off.
Thanks for the words of support.
One of the questions a microstakes regular sometimes faces is whether to deposit or redeposit.
I face that situation now, as my starting capital has dwindled from $50 to just more than $9.
For a winning player this question doesn't come up. Winning players never need to deposit except when they're bonus whoring. And if they're bonus whoring, they can be reasonably sure they'll not only clear the bonus but be profitable while clearing it even without the bonus money being taken into account.
This question also doesn't come up for a microstakes regular with a minimal positive winrate. If he's winning 0 to 5 bb/100 overall, then his bankroll hasn't been reduced and he doesn't need to deposit or redeposit unless he's stupid enough to want to move up stakes as a result of a deposit. That kind of stupidity is cynically encouraged by winning players because they want to win his money off him, but in general moving up stakes without winning your way there is a bad idea.
Therefore, the only players who face the question of depositing or redepositing are either those who have had to withdraw because they needed the cash, or losing players. A microstakes regular is unlikely to find himself in the former situation because it's unlikely that his poker account contains a significant amount of money, else he'd be a winning player. So only the case of the losing player needs to be considered.
For a losing microstakes regular, there are two questions to ask: (1) Is it smart to throw good money after bad? (2) Is the cost of poker worth the enjoyment derived from playing it?
Let's take my situation as an example. I've bled about $41 in just more than two weeks. Thats about $20.50 per week, or, if you use the 4.33 factor for monthly calculations, $88.77 per month. So is poker worth $88.77 per month to me?
The first question is whether I can afford it. The answer is, yes, I can, but not everyone else is in the same situation. For some people, even aspiring poker players, $90 a month is a lot of money. This is especially true of those who wouldn't be able to afford to play at all if it weren't for the $50 free starting capital.
The other consideration is what's generally known as "hobby expense." This relates to an argument frequently made by winning players, which is that golf and other hobbies are much more expensive than poker. Coming from them this argument is cynical because they just want to be the ones to win the losing player's money, and it's in the self-interest of winning players to encourage losing players to deposit and redeposit. Yet the argument still has to be taken seriously on its own merit (as we all know, dismissing an argument merely because of who's making it is a logical fallacy). So the question a losing player has to ask is whether he gets enough out of the money expended in order for it to be worthwhile, and, as a corollary, whether there are other things he could be doing with the money that would be equally worthwhile or more so.
The fact is that, in terms of hobby expense, $90 is not a lot of money. It's the same as six feature films at the movie theatre, which is at most about 12 hours of entertainment. Balanced against the prorated 93.76 hours a month I'd spend playing poker, it's definitely a lot cheaper. Overall, it works out to an expense of less than $1 an hour. Only buying a newspaper and reading it is less expensive than that.
So my conclusion is that I'm going to deposit somewhere, but it's not necessarily going to be on the site I've been playing on so far. I'll pick a site with reasonably active 2NL tables and put in about $90 so that I don't have to redeposit for another month.
If other losing players have faced this situation and found themselves wondering what to do, I'd love to hear your reasoning on what your decision was. (Note that I'm not looking for cynical encouragement from winning players, just comment from losing players.)
I dont think anyone is pounding the op!
My situation is far similar to his own only I am going into the game with a whole different mind set.
Since my last deposit I have been reading, watching videos and learning from this. Especially from this site!
If you are going into the game thinking how much is this hobby going to cost me, then you mite as well bet on the horses every week or take up some other form of recreational gambling.
I honestly believe you will find it difficult to find a player here who dosent want to move up from the micros as that is what this site is all about. Bettering yourself and moving up through the levels into a one day winning player.
So bottom line is im here playing the same stakes as you just like you ask for and I am not giving you cynical encouragement and I am posting on your blog just like you ask.
How do you see poker, just as a hobby or something you want to study to try and better your game??
Originally posted by belayd
Originally posted by Targetme
Well I played over 1 million hands at nl25 and have yet to officially move up. Its not because ive reached my limit (although I might have) Im beating nl50 and nl100 from a smaller sample size I havent moved up because of conveinence(Not enough higher stake tables on my platform) and I like the steady income.Also idras a bum I used to make him cry from sc losses but he did try hard ♦
Hi, Target,
Thanks for your reply.
Do you consider NL25 to be microstakes? It might sound like a stupid question, but I'm not asking about the commonly accepted definition of microstakes. I'm more referring to how you regard your own current playing level.
And how will you be able to tell whether you've plateaued? I realize the answer is different for NL25 from what it would be for NL2, but it could still be helpful to me and any other people reading this who are in a situation similar to yours (or perhaps mine).
Most importantly, if you do decide that you've plateaued, will you be able to continue playing poker and still enjoy it? (I even recall a guy from eastern Canada who said he was a pro making a full-time income at NL25 because of the low cost of living out there, but I'm not sure whether that was you.)
I can't tell you how relieved I am that someone finally contributed something to this blog that's worth replying to. Again, thank you.
Yes ive done the math I could live off just nl25 in most parts of canada (not the western provinces) But im also beating nl50 I just havent been playing it lately but ive started to this week im up 600$ profit in 4 days and probly more then half that in rakeback and im running under ev so its very do able. i dont consider nl25 "microstakes" because it seems like alot of money to me but by definition nl25 and nl50 are microstakes. Even if I plaeaued at nl50 I could live of it and have lots of freedom
Also it took me a year to get solid consistence reslults but I think it was worth it
Originally posted by Targetme
Also it took me a year to get solid consistence reslults but I think it was worth it
How many hands a month do you play, on how many tables at a time? Also, do you play only NL FR ring or do you mix in MTTs, SNGs and some shorthanded tables?
Hi Been playing probably 2 to 3 years and Yes I am a microstakes player!!!
The reason I am a microstakes player is simply a lack of funds. I also have an amazing abilility to build up a BR on a site and proceed to blow the lot in 1 or 2 mad days. Also I often play way above my bankroll should allow risking 25% of my BR on a single SnG , but it does help to concentrate the mind giving me the desire and will so that I can occasionally clock up 10 or more cashes straight. I think poker is a thrills game, I love nothing more than smashing a loud-mouth "expert" by steady play and waiting for the "right hand" to come along. I have no wish to go to Vegas or play live anywhere for that matter. I like the multi-game formats, HORSE etc and stud and omaha Hi/Lo. I don't care what others think we can't all be at the top and some who tread there have simply more money than sense or ability. I say congrats for accepting what you are, enjoy your game and your successes at your level for me that's what online poker should be a chance of the occasional big win and enjoyment in pitting your wits against those who believe they are better than you will ever be. Good luck and keep enjoying your game.
http://www.pokertableratings.com/party-player-search/SickLucker 400k since november 11 but i barely played last month or november/december since I cant always play its better to think hands per day when I first started id do 10k easy but now a 6-7 k day is a hard grind for me
party has no sng so I just play cash some sh
Originally posted by mountig1
Hi Been playing probably 2 to 3 years and Yes I am a microstakes player!!!
The reason I am a microstakes player is simply a lack of funds. I also have an amazing abilility to build up a BR on a site and proceed to blow the lot in 1 or 2 mad days. Also I often play way above my bankroll should allow risking 25% of my BR on a single SnG , but it does help to concentrate the mind giving me the desire and will so that I can occasionally clock up 10 or more cashes straight. I think poker is a thrills game, I love nothing more than smashing a loud-mouth "expert" by steady play and waiting for the "right hand" to come along. I have no wish to go to Vegas or play live anywhere for that matter. I like the multi-game formats, HORSE etc and stud and omaha Hi/Lo. I don't care what others think we can't all be at the top and some who tread there have simply more money than sense or ability. I say congrats for accepting what you are, enjoy your game and your successes at your level for me that's what online poker should be a chance of the occasional big win and enjoyment in pitting your wits against those who believe they are better than you will ever be. Good luck and keep enjoying your game.
From your post count and signup date I'd guess that you haven't gotten much opportunity to take part in discussions you find meaningful. One of the things I wanted to do was get people like you out of the woodwork. So thanks very much for replying. 
For me, poker has never been a thrills game, and I don't enjoy flyers, but if you're the kind of player who does, you're welccome to have your own style.
I hope you'll continue to contribute to this thread. See my post from yesterday about depositing/redepositing and let me know what you think.
Belayd: I don't believe we were trolling you, we simply disagree with your opinion that some people simply do not have the skill to ever move out of the microstakes. Instead, we believe it's a matter of commitment and dedication. However, there is nothing wrong with being a microstakes regular. Microstakes regulars exist, but they can play at higher stakes and win if they work at it. However, since I consider NL10 microstakes, I'm likely to be a microstakes regular for a long time (Perhaps forever if I lose interest in improving my game) and am happy to join in the discussion.
I don't have an opinion on redepositing: I aim never to have to do so
I've recently begun 12-tabling NL2 FR, getting a bit less than 5k hands in so far. I have a hypothetical hand to share:
Villain: UTG+1
Hero: UTG+2. Hero has QdQs.
Stack sizes: 2 dollars each. NL2.
Villain raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.24, Villain calls $0.24
Flop: Ac,Ks,6d
Pot size: $0.48
Villain bets $0.32. Hero ?
Naturally, the question here is, what do you assume average villain's range at NL2 is? If this happened to me against a player I knew was competent, I'd fold because I'd estimate his range at QQ+, AK, and almost certainly not QQ because I have it. But in NL2, many players are not competent. Fellow microstakes players, what would you do in this situation?
Something like this happened to me, but I can't remember precise stack sizes, positions, suits, etc. so I decided to post a theoretical one.
Hopefully this gets some discussion started!
Well thats an easy fold. There are almost no draws and on microstakes people tend to play any ace rag.
Better to wait and stick it in next time.
Hi,
according to my experience it´s easy fold at NL2. There are not much likely hands you´re beating. If he´s solid player, he have smth like TT+ AK,AQ, AJ and you´re behind on this flop. Even if he´s super loosy fish he could have any Ax, KT+.
It´s better to fold and wait for better spot.
Cheers,
Ondra
Hi, Salivanth,
I don't share the general assumption that, just because someone plays NL2, they must be incompetent. For one thing, many top-notch players who are just starting their poker careers start at something like NL2, and some--who knows how many--are even using PokerStrategy's basic strategy or something similar. In this case Villain could be some young hotshot who's crushing NL2 and about to move up to NL5, never to look back again.
Also, keep in mind that the call and subsequent bet were made not only out of position, but from UTG+1. I'd estimate that at least 75% of the players you'll see at NL2 will have enough of a grasp of poker strategy to know that UTG+1 is one of the ugliest spots to donk bet from. Add to that the fact that he bet 2/3rds of the pot, which suggests someone who knows basic bet sizing. A true donkey would have shoved the second his ace paired up.
It's possible that Villain has a low to mid PP because microstakes players often DO get mesmerized by PP and are not able to fold them. About 25% of my profit so far (balanced against greater losses, of course) has come from players who are not able to fold their pocket 5s or 8s. So there is perhaps some reason to put Villain on a PP.
On the other hand, QQ is a very vulnerable hand, and there is an Ace on the board. For the sake of prudence, I would fold in this case.
When you make your first deposit on Cake (and most sites) you get invited to a first-time depositors freeroll. I just played mine. There were 191 entrants and top 40 got paid out of a prize pool of $500. I finished 16th and walked away with $5.40, and could have done much better if I hadn't fallen victim to a suckout.
I can now understand why all of the winning players say that microstakes players are bad. The players in this freeroll were unutterably horrible. Yes, it's a freeroll, but these are depositors, so presumably they're not play money lottery players--except that they played as if they were. I wonder if some of them even know the basic rules of poker, let alone any strategy. What I can conclude is that the fish and donkeys have migrated from cash to the SNGs and MTTs and that's where the winning players in this thread are cleaning up.
Which makes me wonder whether, maybe, I shouldn't read through the basic, bronze and silver articles on SNGs and MTTs and give those a try. At least part-time, splitting my playing time 50/50 between cash and tourneys. HEM doesn't make it easy to compare your results in the two types of play, but with some tab switching (and perhaps opening a second instance of HEM) it can be done. Then, after about a month, I can re-evaluate and see whether I should bother with the dreary world of cash at all.
Or maybe I should just play all of the freerolls I can possibly enter. So far, my ROI is infinity, and I kinda like that.
Hi Belayd!
Originally posted by belayd
I finished 16th and walked away with $5.40, and could have done much better if I hadn't fallen victim to a suckout.
Congratulations to your success! 
In these freerolls are mostly very bad players, but I dont´l like to play them...too much "lucky rivers" for calling stations and too much pure agression (there is always at least one player all-in preflop in every hand).
Which makes me wonder whether, maybe, I shouldn't read through the basic, bronze and silver articles on SNGs and MTTs and give those a try.
SnG´s could be an interesting experience. I got 5 tournament dollars as a bonus from PartyPoker and bought myself in 5 SnG´s. 1 win and 2 second places earned me $9,2. Easy money. But it was probably just rookie luck. 
SnG´s mean more money but bigger variance then micro cash games imo, so watch your BRM!
So far, my ROI is infinity, and I kinda like that.
♠_biggrin: Nice one!
Cheers,
Ondra
Originally posted by sindeon
In these freerolls are mostly very bad players, but I dont´l like to play them...too much "lucky rivers" for calling stations and too much pure agression (there is always at least one player all-in preflop in every hand).
There are ways to deal with lucky calling stations and ways to deal with angry, hyperaggressive players (although, given the way the TV pros mishandle Vanessa Rousso's angry hyperaggression, you wouldn't think so). I'm not afraid of either type of player. Sure, in some tournaments I'll be eliminated by them, but if they're all I have to worry about then I should be able to be a winning player in tournaments.
I'm still in ponder mode because I need to read the strategy articles on tournaments before I start playing them regularly. Part of my concern is that properly-BRMed tournament play doesn't earn very much rakeback or help clear a deposit bonus.
Originally posted by belayd
I'm not afraid of either type of player. Sure, in some tournaments I'll be eliminated by them, but if they're all I have to worry about then I should be able to be a winning player in tournaments.
I don´t mean I´m afraid of them...in cash games I´m literally searching for them...but you know, if they get lucky in cash game, you lose your stack, re-buy and take it back, but if it happens in tournament, you´re out. That´s what I don´t like about MTT. Possible winnings are atractive, but I don´t enjoy the structure...you know, I play poker mostly for fun, not to earn money for living. I just like cash games the most and if I should go elswhere it would be definitely heads-up (pure thrill), but my skills are so far waaaaay too small to do it...but "someday"... 
Looking forward to your tournament progress if you decide to do this move.
Cheers,
Ondra
Hi!
I'm playing microstakes almost a year. I lost my first starting capital and played some freerolls until pokerstrategy.com was kind enough to give me the second one. I hope i do better with that.
I lost my first 50$ mainly because when i saw that my EV was ca 20$ over my actual BR what was still under 50$ i got depressed and moved up limits.
But did i played correct ABC-poker? - No! Did i spend at least 1/3 of my playing time to analyze my game? - No! And i played when i was tired and know that i can't play my A-game.
So i can blame only myself.
I can really suggest 888pokers 8c tournaments for you, thats much better then freerolls: 3000 players max and 1000$ granted! Three times a week.
This tread is really intriguing thats not about just poker. Its more like about question: "Do i have right to have non-winners attitude?" "Do i have right to give up?"
And i think the answer is "Yes you have, if you accept the consequences."
Belayd, I have the same problem with tournaments. I used to do SNG's, was ripping through my bonus, changed to MTT's and was like...what? Where is my bonus? 
Sindeon: In the long run, you win against those kinds of players, it's just that the long run is a lot longer when you play MTT's over cash games. Nothing wrong with disliking MTT's, but I'll just say I hated cash games for months. (I was bored, and never thought I could do the amount of tables I was capable of)
Also, I think we should make a clarification here: Anyone who plays NL2 unless they normally play a far higher limit for some reason IS a bad player in my opinion. This naturally includes myself. I believe what you mean by players not being incompetent is that they know basic Poker strategy. They know position, raise sizes, what hands to play and when. However, Poker is such a skill-intensive game that I feel it would be arrogant to call myself or any other NL2 regular a good player. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, I'm just saying, a good NL2 player is not a good Poker player yet.
I figured the same thing about the hypothetical hand: It sucks to fold queens, but sometimes you just have to. Good to get the discussion going. I never knew that thing about PP's (Thanks belayd!)
Hello mate,
I am a microstakes regular or at least i think so, but let me share with you. First i start playing in FTP with the initial capital + making small deposit to activate the rakeback. I used to play SSS in FTP because i was really new in poker i even didn`t knew what is stronger hand Flush or Streight. I learned by the bad way lossing streight. I am saying that not to be funny but to share that everybody need to put efort into it. Then i started to read all the articles here + 2-3 more bulgarian sites. Then the thing wasn`t going so good in the time i made more than 50k hands and still was in 2/5 cent no limit. I decided to move down to 1/2 cents again. After 2 months of playing freerolls + 2-3 hours daily on the cash tables + 2 hours of reading and watching movies i decided that i want to improve and to crush the microstakes. What i did? i have a real life friend from my country who is succesufull player in 50/100 no limit and he is making 2000 euro each month from rakeback even if didn`t made winingns from playing. I decided to speak with him so last Sunday we went to a coffe and he was like tell what u do in poker what u play. I told him and he was like little surprused and told me that i am from the first few ppl who he know that didn`t losse the initial capital of 50$ for more that 2 and a half months. Then he told me if u want to make profil and move to the limits u must play BSS:). I was like but i like SSS. And he explained to me that must be BBS agressive player. So the same night he conected to my pc with Teamviewer and we started playing in FTP on 2 tables. He showed me how to read the players and the statistic correctly but maybe the most important was that He explained to me that to crush this limit u might think as a fish because if u thinks like normal player u will beat 1-2 players on the table and the others will crush u. Something else which he showed to me was the Shorthanded tables, because till now i was playing full ring. So i started with him 2 tables shorthanded at 1/2 cents and playing 3-4 hours togethers he gave me alot of info to think about ofc with him was easy we made 18 $ profit for 1 and a half hour. Then i went to sleep and think about all the info which he gave me. On the other day he told me Plamen(this is my name) u must change the room where u play and deposit your money so i checked the bulgarian poker trackers and found a good offer for PokerHost and made a deposit 100$ and took rakeback activated 35% and 100$ bonus to exchange and maybe the most important rakerace which is if i acumulate 500$ rake so real amount of 135 $ given back i recive a bonus 100$ to my account and this is for each month so if u generate 1000$ rake u recive the racke back of 35% + 200 $ bonus And he told me when u play with your personal money not the ones which recived from pokerstrategy it will be diferent.
So from tuesday i play in pokerhost i made around 3k hands, it`s true that there on the 2/4 cent which is lowest stake there aren`t alot of tables 10-15 at the time but i met alot of fishes and regulars so i learned alot things of BSS while was playing and reading whole the articles for that strategy. Started playing on 1 table now i play 4 and it`s going prety well. Soonn i think to make one more training with him so he can show me the leaks which i do. And i am trying to say if u can`t alone ask for help it`s nothing bad to do. I guess my post become too large so wish u all the best and much luck on the tables
Best Regards Plami 
