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200NL downswing MSS

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Donkey111
Joined: 20.02.2010

Originally posted by jowy88
@Donkey111 : I'm playing 40bb with autorebuy, an I leave the table with 50bb or more. My 3bet stats are :
MP : 5
CO : 7
BU : 9
SB : 13
BB : 13
VS steal : 17

Well obviously, my help is extremely limited as I was interested in mid-stack online primarily to avoid exploitation and it was at 25NL where my villains were presumably less competent than yours. You appear to be a little tighter than me but I haven't used a mid-stack online over a large sample to tell what numbers are best. Moreover, your tightness can be explained by your slightly larger stack. Anyway, I just wanted to check if there was something extremely obvious that I could correct but no, purely from a number point of view, you look about fine.

Bon courage! Espérons que ca ne durera pas trop longtemps ;)


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jowy88
Joined: 09.08.2008

Thx Donkey111 for your link, it was very interesting. I agree with what it is said.

I showed you my 3bet stats by position, so I will give you my Open raise by position now (each time that I'm the 1st raiser) :

EP : 16
MP : 22
CO : 28
BU : 46
SB : 53

I'm playing 21/21 with 11% 3bet and its a mix of full ring and short handed games.


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Donkey111
Joined: 20.02.2010

Originally posted by jowy88
I showed you my 3bet stats by position, so I will give you my Open raise by position now (each time that I'm the 1st raiser) :

EP : 16
MP : 22
CO : 28
BU : 46
SB : 53

I'm playing 21/21 with 11% 3bet and its a mix of full ring and short handed games.

Man, you are loose! There is a direct correlation between your stack size and how loose you can be preflop. The smaller the stack, the tighter you should be out of the blinds and OOP. You can play looser when you have an advantage over the field, for example, against regs who make many mistakes when playing against your stack size. But as a general rule, you should play tighter than the average 100bb in the same position. So to me your O/R stats seem suspiciously too loose.

Anyway, you are asking me to look at your stats as if I was an expert. I'm not so don't take my advice as gospel.

Live I was raising 10% from MP and 25% on the button. It makes sense because there were many multi-way pots so I had to play tighter to avoid marginal situation post-flop.

The little I have played online 6max (no experience in FR), I only tried with
UTG: 13%
MP: 17%
CO: 20%
BTN: 35%
SB: 40%

That's a nitty 6-max opening range and I could have probably tightened it up even more in UTG/MP/CO. Also note that most of my ranges except in BTN/SB was made of high cards.

But I like your stats on the BTN and SB if the SB/BB don't give you too much trouble.


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ArtisSkirpa
Joined: 20.11.2009

Originally posted by Donkey111
First, regarding the ethic of short/midstacking, I will redirect everyone interested to NoahSD's blog who is much more eloquent than I am:
http://www.nsdpoker.com/2011/01/the-poker-economy/

Obviously, some people (like ArtisSkirpa) are so prejudiced against anything but a 100bb+ stack that they write things that are just plain false. Let me clear up a few concepts:

1. In terms of difficulty:
SS < Midstack < 100bb stack < deep (200bb+) stack

In other words, the shallower the stack, the more mechanical it is to play, and the less skilled in poker you are, the more a shorter stack will suit you.

2. Steal
You cannot steal the blinds of a mid-stack relentlessly. Well, maybe you can, if the midstacker is a new player who follows PS beginner midstack strategy which is quite tight. But any pro midstacker who is worth his grain of salt will constantly put you to the test with relentless 3-bets. If anything, you should should play a little tighter from the button against a competent midstacker. The midstacker shares something with the short-stacker: they both thrive on fold equity but the mid-stacker has to care about his pot equity a lot more.

3. Preflop 3b/4b ranges
No, you cannot adjust your preflop ranges on the fly against a good midstacker. The first reason why I studied midstacking was because I was tired of midstackers exploiting me with their 3-bets and it takes some study to make up a good defensive counter-strategy. In my case I ended up with a rough equilibrium to make sure I was 4-betting enough for value to prevent mid-stacker from blatantly exploiting me. The end result was not intuitive at all: 4betting/stacking off against a 35bb midstack (which is the size I studied) is very different from stacking off against a 100bb stack. If you are as I was before I studied midstacking then let me tell you: you should 4b/stack off a lot looser than you probably think.

4. Live vs online
This is generous to say that live is equivalent to 10-25NL online. Maybe on the soft sites it is. On the large ones, if you ask me, I will say that it is easier than 5NL! :rolleyes: I do agree that midstacking online and live is very different, not because live is softer but because you end up multi-way live a lot more often than you do online. That makes midstacking live a completely different beast from online.

I also agree than you are much better off live with a full stack. In my my case I had no choice as my risk of ruin with a full stack was very high (low BR). Also due to the looser nature of the live games, you have to play a midstack a lot tighter than online. Needless to say than I often ended being bored to death...

I agree with your post for the most part. And I have nothing against playing with a less than 100bb stack as such, I just hate that there are sites out there that advocate SSS and MSS, knowing that it's bad for the game, and halts the player's (SSer's or MSer's) development as a poker player.

I disagree with the part about not being able to exploit MSers. The thing is, that everyone of them plays different, preflop ranges are different in different spots for different MSers. So you can't necessarily study MSS and know perfectly what they're ranges are. What I do, and I'm sure most other 200nl or 100nl regs do, is I take notes of what hands they show up with, after they 3bet or 4bet or whatever, then I look at those notes combined with stats and try to figure out a strategy to exploit them. I have done some calcs myself and have looked at other people's calcs, I consider myself to be pretty good with stats and numbers, so I don't really do any calcs on paper anymore.

Every reg plays different at small stakes too, so MSers have to alter they're ranges pretty significantly depending on which regular they're up against. They can't just use charts anymore when they get to small stakes. Because no one, who is actually good at poker wastes they're time by MSing, and MSers generally masstable, I assume they're incapable of adjusting enough to regs as regs adjust to them.

In general though, they play too tight vs steals, and defend they're blinds mostly by 3betting, or as OP does, only by 3betting which makes it extremely easy to steal they're blinds with a 100% range preflop. I guarantee you, none of them 3bets enough to counter that. Most of them fold too much to 3bets, so because they never call 3bets pre, I can just 3bet them like 2.5x with ATC really cheap and show profit. If you're a midstacker, you really have to be aware of what you're fold to 3bet % is, it cannot be exploitable preflop, if you never play back by calling.

OP, for example, opens 46% from the button, and a lot of MSers do, say he opens for 3x. I can 3bet him to something like 7-8bb from the big blind (7 is probably enough since he never calls). I'm risking 6-7bb to win 4.5bb, I don't feel like calculating now, but you can imagine how much of his 46% opening range he has to 4bet to make it unprofitable for me/profitable for him. Same with his 53% SB opening range.
It will take him some time to adjust by not opening so much or 4betting more. And I assure you any reg will adjust to his adjustments quicker than he can readjust.


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fuzzyfish
Joined: 12.01.2010

Shortstacking and midstacking is not poker. It's a handicapped and simplified parody of poker. It will ruin the game for all players at the table and keeps others from playing real poker as well, making them feel miserable. And it will eventually make shortstacker feel miserable as well - because it's fucking lame and boring.

That's it, end of story.

And for all of you "but pokerstrateg teaches it" guys. Pokerstrategy teaches it so people who are not the brightest crayons in the box and therefore incapable of mastering the winning BSS strategy could earn them some rake too.


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Originally posted by fuzzyfish
Shortstacking and midstacking is not poker. It's a handicapped and simplified parody of poker. It will ruin the game for all players at the table and keeps others from playing real poker as well, making them feel miserable. And it will eventually make shortstacker feel miserable as well - because it's fucking lame and boring.

That's it, end of story.

And for all of you "but pokerstrateg teaches it" guys. Pokerstrategy teaches it so people who are not the brightest crayons in the box and therefore incapable of mastering the winning BSS strategy could earn them some rake too.

Constructive reaction to OP's question...


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fuzzyfish
Joined: 12.01.2010

Of course it's constructive. I'm not telling OP is a bad person, I'm just telling that he's doing bad things. This could change his life. (Only true if he's not an arrogant prick).


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This is starting to get off topic, but I believe that one should pick the game he whishes and come here with questions and get the support of this community. Nobody wants to get flamed or whatever.

Of course changing to an other game type is a solution for OP but it's not really an answer to his question.


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ArtisSkirpa
Joined: 20.11.2009

Originally posted by Tampaloeres81
This is starting to get off topic, but I believe that one should pick the game he whishes and come here with questions and get the support of this community. Nobody wants to get flamed or whatever.

This is the god damn downswing forum. I think OP has received more constructive replies than he could have ever asked for.

I totally agree with fuzzyfish on why pokerstrategy teaches these strategies and their overall impact on the game and the player.


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Originally posted by fuzzyfish
Shortstacking and midstacking is not poker. It's a handicapped and simplified parody of poker. It will ruin the game for all players at the table and keeps others from playing real poker as well, making them feel miserable. And it will eventually make shortstacker feel miserable as well - because it's fucking lame and boring.

That's it, end of story.

And for all of you "but pokerstrateg teaches it" guys. Pokerstrategy teaches it so people who are not the brightest crayons in the box and therefore incapable of mastering the winning BSS strategy could earn them some rake too.

+1..

Post flop poker is real poker.


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Donkey111
Joined: 20.02.2010

Originally posted by fuzzyfish
Shortstacking and midstacking is not poker. It's a handicapped and simplified parody of poker. It will ruin the game for all players at the table and keeps others from playing real poker as well, making them feel miserable.

I suggest that you give your gold status rake to some rakeback affiliate other than PokerStrategy since they work at ruining the game and make everyone feel miserable.


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CheckBop
Joined: 20.11.2010

variance mate , you can beat it !


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