Post HH's of Difficult Turn Spots

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Considering your idea to "barrel with equity", what is your plan for the river? What do you expect to make him fold with your barrel on the turn? If you assume he calls medium pairs on that turn your bet is horrible unless you follow it up with a river bet.

I am obviously never triple barrelling a fish with queen high if the river bricks, I am betting when the flush completes and checking back everything else including queen rivers.

Although I do agree in hindsight I should have checked in this particular spot the main reason for my bet on the turn in this hand was because of his stats. Does someone raising 27% of hands limp an ace or medium PPs? He also folds to Cbet a very low amount, so I was thinking there are lots of hands like 78, 79, 95 in his range as well as flush draws that he peels the flop with, I don't give him credit for a pair just because he called on the flop.

Can you think of a similar spot, or change the board in this hand, where you would double barrel against a fish, or are you always checking back the turn with draws?

Originally posted by roopopper
I know we are talking about the turn here, but with villian having such a wide calling range, would it not have been better to just check the flop, then if he fires a bet on the turn it would be maybe cheaper to see the river and give you an extra card to hit your flush? Does a player with those kind of stats ever take notice of a c-bet?

I cbet here because A high flops are great to cbet on, 1/3 of the time I take the pot down with Q high which I am not unhappy with as a result, and I want to be the aggressor. If I had checked back this turn then I would get to see all five cards for one bet on the flop where I choose the size, where as if I check flop and villain pots the turn I don't get to see the river, or I get to see it on his terms.

Plus I don't like only checking and calling when I am drawing and then betting when I make a hand. I think that is very "level one poker" and intuitively easy to read, even for fish.

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
He does fold 33% to cbets so he doesn't call all hands. He could well fold Kx, QJ, QT or hands that have good equity like 89. Basically, our cbet is to make him fold his air because his air has good equity vs us. If he doesn't fold he probably doesn't have air and it's best to proceed with caution. Just my 2 cents...

Thanks Emanuel
Sometimes I just need a little help to see things more clearly, having thought a bit more about this hand I can see if the flop was checked then it could also make it glaringly obvious im chasing a flush and definatley dont have top pair as its already out there.

Thanks

Originally posted by Chargemore

Originally posted by roopopper
I know we are talking about the turn here, but with villian having such a wide calling range, would it not have been better to just check the flop, then if he fires a bet on the turn it would be maybe cheaper to see the river and give you an extra card to hit your flush? Does a player with those kind of stats ever take notice of a c-bet?

I cbet here because A high flops are great to cbet on, 1/3 of the time I take the pot down with Q high which I am not unhappy with as a result, and I want to be the aggressor. If I had checked back this turn then I would get to see all five cards for one bet on the flop where I choose the size, where as if I check flop and villain pots the turn I don't get to see the river, or I get to see it on his terms.

Plus I don't like only checking and calling when I am drawing and then betting when I make a hand. I think that is very "level one poker" and intuitively easy to read, even for fish.

Thanks chargemore,
I am a level 1 player so all feedback on my thinking is greatly appreciated

Originally posted by Chargemore

Can you think of a similar spot, or change the board in this hand, where you would double barrel against a fish, or are you always checking back the turn with draws?

I wouldn't double barrel because of the A on the flop. I think they would fold a large amount of the time without an A in their hand to a flop cbet. They're thinking "Crap he hit the Ace... I fold". So I'd say the call is stronger than a usual cbet call because the A is a scare card to any non-Ax hand of the fish.
I could see a turn cbet when our equity improves OTT (a K or J). But even then I'm inclined to take a free card though.

On the other hand, if the A hits ott instead of the flop I prolly turn cbet 100%. For example on a 649A board.

Originally posted by Chargemore

Originally posted by EmanuelC16
Considering your idea to "barrel with equity", what is your plan for the river? What do you expect to make him fold with your barrel on the turn? If you assume he calls medium pairs on that turn your bet is horrible unless you follow it up with a river bet.

I am obviously never triple barrelling a fish with queen high if the river bricks, I am betting when the flush completes and checking back everything else including queen rivers.

Although I do agree in hindsight I should have checked in this particular spot the main reason for my bet on the turn in this hand was because of his stats. Does someone raising 27% of hands limp an ace or medium PPs? He also folds to Cbet a very low amount, so I was thinking there are lots of hands like 78, 79, 95 in his range as well as flush draws that he peels the flop with, I don't give him credit for a pair just because he called on the flop.

Can you think of a similar spot, or change the board in this hand, where you would double barrel against a fish, or are you always checking back the turn with draws?

I don't think he peels 79 or 95. I agree he peels other FDs, OESD and gutters. The thing is, you are ahead of those hands unless he has the K FD so you don't acheive that much by betting the turn. Against that range you have good implied odds if he makes second best hand and you have very good showdown value currently. Only reason to bet is to make him fold medium pairs which in my experience they have trouble doing nowadays to just 2 bets.

I would however bet a hand like JJ there because now I want him to call once more with his draws and pair + draw because on the river he will now fold unimproved and if he improves I am dead.

Here is a rough example imo:

How JJ does vs his range here. If he has some more draws it's a clear vbet. As it is it's very thin of course. I assume he c/r the flop with any 2pair+ hand btw.

Board: A♦4♦6♥ 3♣
       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    48.88%  48.88%   0.00% { JhJs }
MP3    51.12%  51.12%   0.00% { 99-77, 55, A7s-A2s, K6s, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, 53s+, Qd8d, Jd8d, Qd7d, Jd7d, Td7d, Qd6d, Jd6d, Td6d, Kd5d, Qd5d, Jd5d, Td5d, Qd4d, Jd4d, Kd3d, A8o-A2o, K6o, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 53o+ }

If you change your hand to Q T you still have very good equity but now you need him to fold some of his midpair type hands in order to bet. If you know he does you can happily bluff and reevaluate if you get raised. If you think he doesn't fold them you have to decide between checking and betting both turn and river. The advantage of checking in this specific spot is of implied odds since the turn improved his range greatly. The obvious OESD got there, his pairs now have redraws or he turned 2 pair so all you can hope he folds that beats you and you do bad against is a K high FD.

Board: A♦4♦6♥ 3♣
       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    32.27%  32.27%   0.00% { QdTd }
MP3    67.73%  67.73%   0.00% { 99-77, 55, A7s-A2s, K6s, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, 53s+, Qd8d, Jd8d, Qd7d, Jd7d, Td7d, Qd6d, Jd6d, Td6d, Kd5d, Qd5d, Jd5d, Td5d, Qd4d, Jd4d, Kd3d, A8o-A2o, K6o, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 53o+ }