[Closed] floped trips

I think slowplaying is ok here but I would have bet like the potsize = 60 on the flop. There is a multi-way-pot. And there is a possible flush draw on the board. I would like to isolate here. The J is a problem though. Possible straight. Without reads and concerning his further bets I dont give him this hand range. He overbets the flop with 4 times the pot. I would assume he has something like TT QT. Problem is if he has something like K3s. He has the possible flush draw and straight draw now and a lot of outs. So lets see.

Assuming he has Kxs.

Outs:

AAAA9999 (straight) + 23456789J (flush)

Assuming he has Kx and you indicate a strong hand I would cut the outs by 2.

Lets see: 15 outs.

52 - 6 = 46

46 - 15 = 31/15 = ~2-1

So you want his odds to be so that he would not call.

So 540 is the pot size on the turn.

So betting pattern:

540 + 1000 = ~1500 = 1500 - 1000 (call) = 1.5 - 1 = Fold

Something like that. So you want his odds to be that bad that the outs dont count.

But! This is very theoretical and I dont know if I have done anything wrong here.

i think after villain bets 4x pot on the flop he really will never lay his hand down so i would just raise it right there and get the money in.

as played: on the turn i would lead out because you cant give him a free river if he checks behind with the board being so draw heavy

Originally posted by JimmyBacardi
I think slowplaying is ok here but I would have bet like the potsize = 60 on the flop.

Nooooo i'd never ever slowplay a flop which is so draw heavy. Just shove all in asap with trips.

Originally posted by gedwashere91

Just shove all in asap with trips.

Really? With crap kicker? His bet on the flop is 4x the pot... guess who is protecting his AQ, KQ, QJ from the flush draw. I auto-fold right there, without the slightest remorse.

*edit: BTW, When his turn bet is 240 again, he's definitely got QJ

@AquamanBT: Villain is limping very very early in the tournament when the blinds are miniscule, so he could be betting the flop with nearly any Q, not just AQ/KQ/QJ. Regardless, we are ahead most of the time as it's so unlikely he is holding the last Q anyway.

I agree with Ged, slowplaying this drawy board when the pot is so tiny is asking for trouble and losing value. When you get a fish playing this aggressively you don't need to slowplay, just get it all in.

Originally posted by AquamanBT

Originally posted by gedwashere91

Just shove all in asap with trips.

Really? With crap kicker? His bet on the flop is 4x the pot... guess who is protecting his AQ, KQ, QJ from the flush draw. I auto-fold right there, without the slightest remorse.

*edit: BTW, When his turn bet is 240 again, he's definitely got QJ

1 Q left in the deck. if hes got it nh gg.

you should never be folding trips at any point during this hand. preferably the money should be in the middle on the flop or turn. like i said. raise flop is best.

if ur folding trips regularly because ur scared that someone else has trips as well you might as well be handing your opponents your money.

ps. an overbet on the flop is rarely the nuts. its usually a medium made hand or pure bluff.

Yes, I'm giving away the ridiculous amount of 20 chips... My investment to that point is worthless, so I'm not gonna put my tournament life on a 7 kicker. If he bluffed me, well, nh, I'll catch him later.

Obviously he hasn't flopped the nuts, with his overbet my read is that he is protecting his hand from the flush draw. That's why his turn bet is 240 again, when now he's got the nuts. He's trying to reel us in.

Do you put him on complete air with that overbet? I don't think so. I'm still folding, more so because it is this early.

But agree... If I'm going to go broke with the hand, I'm definitely doing it on the flop.

I really want to help you AquamanBT so ill try and get my point across without sounding argumentative.

you are thinking about the hand the wrong way.

you are thinking:

he could have the Q with a bigger kicker. that hand would beat me... i dont have the nuts, so i should fold. it only cost me 20 chips, oh well.

you should be thinking:

i have trips. the chances of him having the other Q with a bigger kicker are extremely small. i very often have the best hand here and i have a great chance to pick up his entire stack because he doesnt look like hes going to fold.

And, although his bet-sizing doesnt matter (were going broke with trips no matter what he decides to bet), his bet is an indication of weakness, not strength.

one of the fundamental goals in all forms of poker is to get your money into the pot with the best hand. this is a perfect opportunity for us to get the money in with the best hand a huge % of the time.

here is an exaggerated example to illustrate my point:

we are playing a hand;

the board runs out to this : 33K56

we are holding KK, we have the top full house.

our opponent goes all-in on the river.

there is a VERY SMALL chance he has 33 which would give him 4 of a kind and beat us.

would you fold? of course not!

there is a small chance we are beat holding trips on the flop, but we very likely have the best hand. should you fold? .........

you will have a hard time trying to find anyone who wouldnt be going broke with this hand.

and for the record: these are the hands i put him on that we beat.

22-99,JJ,KK,AA
Q2-Q6
Tx
and every flush draw.

a weak player is just as likely to bet 4x pot with these hands as he is with a Q that beats us.

how many hands beat us on the flop? TT,QT,KQ,AQ

as you can see there are far more combinations of hands we beat, compared to hands that beat us. Given this information, the probability of us having the best hand is greater than the probability of us having the worst hand (and this difference is a very big difference given the range of hands he could hold).

Therefore we must go with our hand!

First of all <3, I want to thank you very much for all the effort you put into this. I've learned a lot from you and I respect your thinking very, very much.

I think I understand your process of thought. I guess that this will just apply to sng's, right? If you're busted, you fire up another tourney and that's it. Would you do the same play in the first hand of the WSOP Main Event? Well, at least not me... I'm not busting out with Q7 in the first hand just because many times I may have the best hand .

Maybe that's a handicap I carry from playing live freezeout tourneys. I face the same problems when playing re-buy tournaments, in which it's difficult for me to switch the mindset. I'll do my best to try to adapt to the situations according to the context.

Again, thanks for your evaluations. This is a priceless learning tool.

your experience in live freeze-outs is probably causing this mindset.

obviously in live tournaments you can often put players on very specific ranges and can narrow his holdings down to a few cards. it would still be an absolute hero lay-down to fold trips on this flop but of course with the right reads its possible and can be very correct in some situations (especially live).

However, playing online SnGs is about accumulating a lot of small edges over every tournament and over thousands and thousands of games these small edges add up to big $ amounts of winnings. This is a clear edge we need to take in every game we play because we simply do not know enough information to be able to fold. When playing micro-SnGs we have to practically play the same optimal strategy vs every opponent. Making hero lay-downs might make you feel good if he turns over trips one out of 100 times. but on the other 99 times that we have him crushed, you would feel pretty horrible for folding.

Making the correct decision will provide us with a long term edge. Some games the correct decision will mean we are all in with KK v AA pre flop and we lose, but that doesnt mean we made the wrong decision. Sometimes we will go all in on a QQT board with Q7 and run into QT. But that doesnt mean we made the wrong decision. What is important is that on average over the long-run we are making the correct decisions. In particular in SnG tournaments these amount to +$EV decisions.

Our goal is to find every decision that is +$EV and take it.

Got it. This is the best explanation I've read on the subject. You should write an article on this, or perhaps a sticky on the SNG Strategy forum. I agree 100% with you. Your help is deeply appreciated.

Originally posted by AquamanBT
Maybe that's a handicap I carry from playing live freezeout tourneys. I face the same problems when playing re-buy tournaments, in which it's difficult for me to switch the mindset. I'll do my best to try to adapt to the situations according to the context.

The biggest thing to remember, in my opinion, is that you'll generally play live tourneys much more deepstacked than a turbo 9-man SnG. I would feel a bit uneasy going broke on this flop if I was like 100-200 bb deep, but when we're in a SnG and at maximum generally only 30bb deep, going broke with trips is pretty much always a good move.
I have the same trouble adjusting to deepstack live tournaments, except the other way around. I donk off lots of chips with a semi-decent hand and run into the nuts... >.<

Ged's point is crucially important as well.

A+

Great information in this thread, thanks for posting everyone!!