Weekly Vote: What's your take on Cheong's A7 hand?

  • Poll
    • What's your take on Cheong's A7 hand?

      • 111
        I think he made a mistake there.
        67%
      • 29
        Neither really good nor really bad.
        17%
      • 26
        I think it was a good play.
        16%
      Total: 166 Votes
    • DavidJMA
      DavidJMA
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 334
      The 2010 WSOP Main Event is over and the winner has been crowned, but there is still one hand that is under discussion: Chip leader Joseph Cheong's six-bet shove with A7 into fellow big stack Jonathan Duhamel.

      Find our summary of the 2010 WSOP Main Event final table here.

      So what's your take on the play? Like it? Hate it? Please let us know what you think and explain your decision here in this thread!
  • 26 replies
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      I thought Cheong's shove was nothing short of brilliant imo. I actually question Duhamel's 5-bet in the first place, since I'm not sure he was thinking on the level of inducing a 6-bet shove with worse...I feel like it was more of "I have QQ and we're really deep 3 handed, I re-raise" or kind of turning his hand into a bluff to end the hand and avoid awkward spots postflop. It seems like flatting the 4 bet is by far the best option to keep worse hands in and get value postflop. Cheong's comments after the hand confirmed this ("how can you have QQ there?"), he was totally shocked to see QQ turn up and expected the 5bet to be completely polarized to KK+ and air. Add in the blocker to AA and it appears to make the shove really, really good.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Each year in poker, a new poker phrase enters the collective psyche that people overuse to death.

      This years word is "blockers"

      "I shove KQ because I have blockers to all the big hands".

      People, like the one directly above me, say it to try and justify a bad play. :f_biggrin:

      Just factor in all the numbers into ICM and you will see for yourself how bad this play was, or even better, watch pzhon's new video out today explaining the ICM system. :f_love:

      More to the point, if Cheong had been paying any attention whatsoever, he surely must have picked up the fact that his opponent had been calling much lighter than others all throughout the main event. This makes it an even worse shove when he knows opponents calling range is way wider than just KK+.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well it definetly wasn't the worse play, but the fact that it was the main event and he had an easy way to heads up with the shorty behind he really shouldn't go crazy there with A7.
    • Mako2d2f
      Mako2d2f
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2010 Posts: 51
      The right play was to avoid Duhamel, and both united to take Raceners chips. Duhamel rly didn't want to be against chip leader thats why he didn't go all in right after the raise.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Each year in poker, a new poker phrase enters the collective psyche that people overuse to death.

      This years word is "blockers"

      "I shove KQ because I have blockers to all the big hands".

      People, like the one directly above me, say it to try and justify a bad play. :f_biggrin:

      Just factor in all the numbers into ICM and you will see for yourself how bad this play was, or even better, watch pzhon's new video out today explaining the ICM system. :f_love:

      More to the point, if Cheong had been paying any attention whatsoever, he surely must have picked up the fact that his opponent had been calling much lighter than others all throughout the main event. This makes it an even worse shove when he knows opponents calling range is way wider than just KK+.
      ICM tax makes your opponents' 5bet inducing range tighter. Pretty sure Duhamel will 5betshove AK and JJ rather than 5betting small, so his range is VERY polarised. Add in the fact that according to both players, dynamics were such that Duhamel is 5betting very light there, and you have a pretty easy shove. Not so much blockers here, just better equity vs his calling range.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Each year in poker, a new poker phrase enters the collective psyche that people overuse to death.

      This years word is "blockers"

      "I shove KQ because I have blockers to all the big hands".

      People, like the one directly above me, say it to try and justify a bad play. :f_biggrin:

      Just factor in all the numbers into ICM and you will see for yourself how bad this play was, or even better, watch pzhon's new video out today explaining the ICM system. :f_love:

      More to the point, if Cheong had been paying any attention whatsoever, he surely must have picked up the fact that his opponent had been calling much lighter than others all throughout the main event. This makes it an even worse shove when he knows opponents calling range is way wider than just KK+.
      ICM tax makes your opponents' 5bet inducing range tighter. Pretty sure Duhamel will 5betshove AK and JJ rather than 5betting small, so his range is VERY polarised. Add in the fact that according to both players, dynamics were such that Duhamel is 5betting very light there, and you have a pretty easy shove. Not so much blockers here, just better equity vs his calling range.
      Pretty sure duhamel knows cheong is capable of 6 bet bluff shoving, why fold out worse hands by 5 bet shoving AK and JJ, let the guy spew off instead.
      duhamels 5 bet looks so much like a bet/fold line that cheong outlevelled himself and ruled out all the hands that duhamel would do it with, (which were hands that he is calling a 6 bet with)
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      I think it was a bad play. There wasn't any preflop war going on.

      You guys might be right that KK+ should be most of his value range, but even so, I don't see a reason for him to have enouth air in his range to justify the push.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Each year in poker, a new poker phrase enters the collective psyche that people overuse to death.

      This years word is "blockers"

      "I shove KQ because I have blockers to all the big hands".

      People, like the one directly above me, say it to try and justify a bad play. :f_biggrin:

      Just factor in all the numbers into ICM and you will see for yourself how bad this play was, or even better, watch pzhon's new video out today explaining the ICM system. :f_love:

      More to the point, if Cheong had been paying any attention whatsoever, he surely must have picked up the fact that his opponent had been calling much lighter than others all throughout the main event. This makes it an even worse shove when he knows opponents calling range is way wider than just KK+.
      ICM tax makes your opponents' 5bet inducing range tighter. Pretty sure Duhamel will 5betshove AK and JJ rather than 5betting small, so his range is VERY polarised. Add in the fact that according to both players, dynamics were such that Duhamel is 5betting very light there, and you have a pretty easy shove. Not so much blockers here, just better equity vs his calling range.
      Pretty sure duhamel knows cheong is capable of 6 bet bluff shoving, why fold out worse hands by 5 bet shoving AK and JJ, let the guy spew off instead.
      duhamels 5 bet looks so much like a bet/fold line that cheong outlevelled himself and ruled out all the hands that duhamel would do it with, (which were hands that he is calling a 6 bet with)
      cause it's better to get a fold from your opponent, esp with AK, when you take into consideration the size of the pot and ICM tax. its like if you are on the bubble of a DoN and chipleader vs 2nd chipleader (bunch of shortstacks around) you decide to raise-to-induce with AA vs a maniac. pretty f bad idea
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by santostr
      I think it was a bad play. There wasn't any preflop war going on.

      You guys might be right that KK+ should be most of his value range, but even so, I don't see a reason for him to have enouth air in his range to justify the push.
      obviously was ridiculously huge preflop war going on based on the interviews. cheong was 4betting duhamel a LOT it seemed. for that to happen duhamel had to be 3betting cheong a lot.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      I watched the whole HU live and final table live online.

      Cheong was 4 betting light all the time when specially Duhamel was 3 betting. It worked at least 75% of the time.

      But he should of definally folded here and realized he was beat.
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      Well I read all the hands of the FT. Didn't see much pre-flop war going on, especially when 4-3 handed.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Actually you are right starting from 5 handed Candio started playing super tight so it was less crazy
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      I re-read from 5 handed...

      1 hand Duhamel 3bets/folds to Cheong.
      1 hand Duhamel raise/fold to Cheong 3bet.

      That looks pretty standart... Not a pre-flop war.


      Can someone not as lazzy as I am do the math? How much air is necessary for the shove to be +$ev, assuming he only 5bets/call QQ+ that way for value.

      Or just cEV. Cause 1st prize is much more than 8.9 million with sponsorships, TV time, etc...
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by santostr
      I re-read from 5 handed...

      1 hand Duhamel 3bets/folds to Cheong.
      1 hand Duhamel raise/fold to Cheong 3bet.

      That looks pretty standart... Not a pre-flop war.


      Can someone not as lazzy as I am do the math? How much air is necessary for the shove to be +$ev, assuming he only 5bets/call QQ+ that way for value.

      Or just cEV. Cause 1st prize is much more than 8.9 million with sponsorships, TV time, etc...
      6+6+3=15 comboes of qq+. 24.134% equity when called.

      Relevant action was 4bet to 14.25m, 5bet to 22.75m, ship for roughly 90m effective.

      EV = FE(22.75+14.25) + (1-FE)[(0.24134*180) + (0.75866*-75.75)]
      0 = FE(37) + (1-FE(-31.55))
      31.55 = 68.55FE

      FE required = 0.46

      Duhamel needs roughly 13 comboes of bluff hands in his range for Cheong to make a +cEV shove. ATo = 12 comboes (to 5bet ATs is a waste of a hand), A9 = 16 comboes... oops we're already there.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      just edited in the math. feel free to correct me if you feel Duhamel has a wider 5bet induce range or something. It's possible. If this was a normal tournament (scale the buyin and prizepools down 100 fold and take away all the sponsorship equity), then I feel the range is about right assuming solid players who know ICM. Maybe Duhamel induces with AKs, maybe JJ....... but both are very marginal and tend more on the side of 5betshoving with (90m over the 14.75m is not an overbet by any stretch of the imagination)
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      I also think the 6bet is good, but the 4bet in the first place is the play I question..

      Why 4bet bluff at all? If Cheong thinks the 3bet is a bluff or weak hand then why not just call play a hand in position, and keep an eye out for the HU. Again, 3 left and two have a big lead - what's the hurry when the blinds are so big?

      Also by 4betting wouldn't you isolate yourself against hands that beat you and bluffs that might raise you? Are you hoping for a fold? What hand 3bets and folds there? Are you hoping for a call? what could call you oop?

      I think Duhamel was patient for the right time to induce a shove. We also don't include what reads he had after all those pf 3bets and 4bets earlier (Cheong was said to have been bluffing half his hands..)

      The 4bet feels like bluff to me and I think Duhamel was wise to induce a shove. Then again, I've never even played in a WSOP final myself + I have 20/20 hindsight :)

    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by gavinonymous
      I also think the 6bet is good, but the 4bet in the first place is the play I question..

      Why 4bet bluff at all? If Cheong thinks the 3bet is a bluff or weak hand then why not just call play a hand in position, and keep an eye out for the HU. Again, 3 left and two have a big lead - what's the hurry when the blinds are so big?

      Also by 4betting wouldn't you isolate yourself against hands that beat you and bluffs that might raise you? Are you hoping for a fold? What hand 3bets and folds there? Are you hoping for a call? what could call you oop?

      I think Duhamel was patient for the right time to induce a shove. We also don't include what reads he had after all those pf 3bets and 4bets earlier (Cheong was said to have been bluffing half his hands..)

      The 4bet feels like bluff to me and I think Duhamel was wise to induce a shove. Then again, I've never even played in a WSOP final myself + I have 20/20 hindsight :)

      Cheong is OOP. and A7o is not a hand that plays well without initiative. Or a hand that plays well postflop at all. I think the 6bet is close but the 4bet isn't at all. Good spot too because he has a blocker to Duhamel's 5betting range.

      Of course he's hoping for a fold gavin :P
    • pogodon
      pogodon
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2010 Posts: 1,210
      i dont think 1 hand should over value of great he played over all
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      hand will be talked about for years... i think the shove is good. i was certainly screaming for an ace... cheong is the nuts
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