ICM trainer

    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      May I ask when this was added to the software list? Didn't see any news yet...

      I'm checking it out right now, and will return with a rewiev later :)

      Best regards,
      Mugge


      Edit: Just noticed that this has been made the official thread so I feel obliged to present it a little bit :)

      Here it is, it is what we have all been waiting for: The ICM trainer, challenges your game in the late stages of SNG's and over time, hopefully makes it perfect!

      Enough for now :) Enjoy it and put it to it's best use. Good luck at the tables!
  • 21 replies
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
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      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi Mugg88!

      There was no time for a news, yet. I will add it later. But feel free to make a review ;)

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Well I have tried it out now and have my first comments :)

      First of all: To get the english version, go to extras -> Sprache -> English (default is German and took me a little while to find out that it was even possible to get it in english :P - would be nice to add at the top of the guide :) )

      With that said I think the program looks very sweet, especially for a freeware program and it's definately good to practice the endgame in sng's..

      There are still room for improvements though: It uses the nash equilibrium to calculate the optimal hand ranges of us and our opponents, and here comes the problem: Most of us are playing low stakes SNG's where our opponents isn't following the ICM calculations very much if following it at all, which means their ranges are very likely to be different from what we see in this program. This fact may turn some of our decissions from +$EV (according to the nash equilibrium) to -$EV (in the actual SNG we're playing) since our opponent calls looser/pushes tighter than we practice here. This could be solved if we were able to adjust our opponents ranges (like in SNGwiz as an example) so we could test ourself in situations more similar to the ones we experience at the tables. Another great point about being able to adjust the ranges is that you could look at a specific situation and try to adjust your opponent, so you will know what happens to your own range if he pushes/calls loose or tight..

      I tried the option to show the ranges in "filter settings", but a downside with this is that your own optimal range is also shown which tells you excatly what the correct decission is, if you got just a little pratice with hand-ranges.


      To sum up: It's a very nice program and I believe it's probably the best freeware ICM tool on the web, but there are a few features which would have been very useful. One thing to add on the plus side is that it's looking nice and it's very easy to configure.
      Still I would rate it 4,5/6

      That's my 5 cent :)

      Good job PS and keep up the brilliant work,
      Mugge
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
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      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      90 % on 134 situations without reading the articles, seems ok :)
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i got 82% over 80 hands or something :( . Program's for practice though, eh? :P .
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      I'm getting around 95% when practicing (did read the articles though;) ) Guess I will keep practicing and then return to SNG's when I got the roll and 100% correct answers :D
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      very sexy tool, sticking around 90%, thanks ps, very very nice.
    • Unam
      Unam
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 17.08.2006 Posts: 8,999
      @ Mugge88

      IMHO the Nash ranges are the biggest advantage of this tool has vs any other software. It is true, I am playing the mid limits, and not the low buyins, but the ranges are way more reasonable then any I have found in SNG wizard so far.
      Added to this, the problem with the SNG wizard Quiz is, when you the the exact calling range of your opponent, your decision is much easier, even if you don't understand why he is calling with this range in this spot. With the PS tool you have to think in lines like "how does my push look for my opponent". This helps to improve your game a lot, and isn't necessary for the SNG wizard quiz at all.

      But when you want to adjust the tool to the low limits, you may adjust Hero Edge in the Filter, just add some % points and see how this changes your decisions.
    • altruist
      altruist
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 121
      Cards: 9 :diamond: 4 :diamond:
      Blinds: 300/600
      Position: SB

      Your decision was wrong.
      Your action was: Fold
      The correct action is: Push

      Pushing all-in with 94 suited? Really? Because after getting trained by this, I pushed and was called by JT, easily lost. Did the calculations and the odds were easily in my opponent's favour..

      Could someone explain to me why it's profitable to push with 94 suited? Because it seems pushing with these hands, I'd only get called by a hand that easily beats me.
    • Unam
      Unam
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 17.08.2006 Posts: 8,999
      You always have to take a look at the whole situation, you can't push 94s in every situation.
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Yes, you will most likely only be called by a hand that you are the underdog against, but all the times you don't get called (which will be alot), you will get the blinds, and even the times you get called you will most likely only be in a 40/60 situation or something similar..

      In short: Blinds, stacks and position all have alot to say when deciding when it's +$EV to push.. Often these factors have more to say that the actual two cards you are holding.

      Best regards,
      Mugge
    • altruist
      altruist
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.05.2007 Posts: 121
      Yeah, I'm just saying following the advice of this trainer you'd end up the underdog a lot..

      I mean Q2 suited, push at 400/800 vs 6960 stack.. if your opponent is going to call you with that stack size, it'll likely be with at least K7+.

      I answered fold, it said I was wrong.. hmm.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi guys!

      Don't worry. The calculations are based on a huge database and even take fold equity into consideration. In some situations it is very profitable to push with Q2s. But it really depends on a very specific situation.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      @Altruist

      That is excactly the point.. he needs a very good hand to call you, which will make the push profitable, since he most of the times won't call you..
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      pretty much sorted all the holes in my ICM play now (95% of holes were that I was too tight with SB pushing, and BB calling ranges).

      Problem is applying it in tournaments. I'm fine if people play perfectly to ICM (and I've pretty much always been OK with this), but if people start limping in, making min-raises (with a small stack) etc. I find it very difficult to adjust.

      Probably another issue with ICM is that I like to have a nice high ROI. Perfect ICM play by everyone (and purely ICM play) for an entire tournament pretty much only guarantees you >-7% ROI (3% edge, -10% for tournament entry).

      Oh well, it's no big problem, fish are far from perfect :P .
    • Unam
      Unam
      Moderator
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      Joined: 17.08.2006 Posts: 8,999
      Originally posted by chenny8888
      >-7% ROI (3% edge, -10% for tournament entry)
      You misunderstood something, the edge of 3% grants you an edge on every decision you make, usually you make more than one decision in a SNG and hence the edge adds up. And when 10 players would meet for 10k SNGs and every player would play mathematically perfect, then your ROI would be -10%.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      oh my bad, good point on the 3% thing.

      Point still stands though: the calling/overcalling ranges in ICM trainer only apply for when the villains are playing near-perfect ICM.
    • Unam
      Unam
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      Joined: 17.08.2006 Posts: 8,999
      Yes and you have to realise how good the player is and what his range in any situation will be. You have to adjust your play vs every villain, that is a fact, but this trainer helps you with your play and allows you to train these situations.

      When you play at the table there is no way to play mathematically perfect, but it is our job, too adjust what we have learned, to come as close as possible to the perfect game.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
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      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      simple question: where is it best to keep the "Hero edge in %" scrool?
    • Asaf92
      Asaf92
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      Joined: 17.11.2009 Posts: 104
      Probebly 0%
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