ICM trainer vs SnG wizz - different ranges

  • 11 replies
    • JoaoWR
      JoaoWR
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 234
      Hi!

      I'd guess they differ because ICM Trainer overvalues folding. Wizard's default SB first in push range is much lower than the range ICM Trainer calculates with. Like that in Wizard the chance of the two blinds colliding is smaller. If it's likely that the big stacks will collide Hero's tournament equity can rise even if Hero folds. On the other hand if they never collide Hero can't just hang around forever but has to push wider. Try to set SB's push range to 100% and BB's call range if SB pushes to 7%. Also set the edge to 0.00. The difference should get smaller. It's impossible to perfectly match the ranges in the two tools however.

      Wizard is better if you're able to set realistic ranges for your opponents. ICM Trainer has fixed ranges based on Nash equilibrium.

      Have fun with these tools!
    • herekPL
      herekPL
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      Joined: 13.05.2007 Posts: 6,181
      Thx man for reply. I'm a begginer and i want to know what is the best tool to take quizes for me now? Maybe take once at wizz and then in trainer?
    • JoaoWR
      JoaoWR
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 234
      I haven't tried Wizard's quiz so I can't answer you that but others surely will.
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
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      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      Originally posted by JoaoWR
      I haven't tried Wizard's quiz so I can't answer you that but others surely will.
      I do well with ICM trainer (about 95%+ usually) but with SNG Wizard I have a poor record with the quizzes. I can't explain it either. Shouldn't they both be using the same equation? Is edge that much of a consideration at the bubble?
    • 8979687
      8979687
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      Joined: 11.11.2008 Posts: 2,225
      It is obvious and finally proven once and for all that hearts are stronger than clubs.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151

      I do well with ICM trainer (about 95%+ usually) but with SNG Wizard I have a poor record with the quizzes. I can't explain it either. Shouldn't they both be using the same equation? Is edge that much of a consideration at the bubble?
      Both use the ICM. Both recognize bubble considerations. The difference is the ranges they give for your opponents. SNG Wizard's default ranges are quite odd. ICM Trainer's ranges do not model all opponents well, but they reflect the stack depth, position, and risk aversion for all players. So, I recommend using ICM Trainer and not SNG Wizard's quizzes.
    • herekPL
      herekPL
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      Joined: 13.05.2007 Posts: 6,181
      THX for all answers. Today i'll startd doing quizzes seriously. Unless i'll be good at it (for beginner i assume min 90% correct answers) i wont start playing SnG.

      Regards
    • herekPL
      herekPL
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      Joined: 13.05.2007 Posts: 6,181
      OK. So there's my another question. How this works:



      ICM trainer edge works different (?) than edge in Wizz. I read about, and understand how edge works and what influence has on our P/F range in Wizz.


      But i cant find out how to set it in ICMtrainer. Maybe You can help me?

      Wizz offers edge between -1.00 to+1.00. Positive edge - less marginal spots, thiner range P/F. Negative - more gambling :) .

      ICMtrainer: edge between -50% to +50%. Negative % - less marginal. Positive - gambling.

      So assume that I put edge in Wizz at 0.2 - what would be the equiwalent in ICMtrainer?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I don't know the scale used by ICM Trainer.

      For both, I recommend using an edge of 0.
    • herekPL
      herekPL
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      Joined: 13.05.2007 Posts: 6,181
      I think that for lower limits (micro) it can be usefull to put bigger edge in Wizz (or smaller in ICM trainer) because ppl are calling with much wider range. I'll try to do this.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If you have established that your ROI in a STT is something like 20%+, then maybe use an edge to represent your skill. However, using the same edge for pushing and calling makes no sense. Further, the professional players I know do not have ROIs that large, and the ones with the highest ROIs do not turn their noses up at small edges. Recognizing and taking advantage of small edges is how you get a good ROI.

      It is remarkable how many untested players say they would turn down a 2:1 edge all-in on the first hand of a MTT, while very good players like Greg "Fossilman" Raymer and Daniel Negreanu say that even the best players can't turn down a 60:40.