blind defending with great pot odds

    • CelebrationMeComeON
      CelebrationMeComeON
      Basic
      Joined: 29.10.2010 Posts: 4
      I play in games where it is a lot of small raises so you often get very great pot odds.
      But I understand that pot odds are not everything.
      If btn raise 2bbs sb fold we are in the BB and get the pot odds 22.22% so we cant say that we can call if we are going to win more then 22.2% because we can just call and push any flop and we are going to win more then 22.2%. but if the pots we win are going to be as big as the ones we loose we can do that.

      But that is probobly not true because we are oop and our calling hands is going to be dominated some.

      So how do we calculate this how do we know how much bigger the pots we loose are going to be?

      Or how do we know what % we are going to win the pot how do we estimate that?

      any ideas?

      :)
  • 11 replies
    • mordath
      mordath
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2009 Posts: 396
      It really depends. But if you're just starting out I would play tight from the blinds. Folding preflop despite great pot odds is a small mistake but you stay out of trouble spots that can happen a lot when you're out of position without initiative and you risk making a big postflop mistake playing mediocre hands.

      It's really hard to win overall from the blinds that's why it's ok to just fold if you're not comfortable playing oop postflop.
    • CelebrationMeComeON
      CelebrationMeComeON
      Basic
      Joined: 29.10.2010 Posts: 4
      Originally posted by mordath
      It really depends. But if you're just starting out I would play tight from the blinds. Folding preflop despite great pot odds is a small mistake but you stay out of trouble spots that can happen a lot when you're out of position without initiative and you risk making a big postflop mistake playing mediocre hands.

      It's really hard to win overall from the blinds that's why it's ok to just fold if you're not comfortable playing oop postflop.
      I understand that we get in a lot more trouble spots but maybe trouble is more +ev?

      some winning players in the game I play just folds BB vs a steal 44% and some winning players fold 75% this is at 5/10 10/20

      just because it is impossible to win from the blinds doesnt mean we cant do their our best to lose as little that we can.

      Do anyone know if you can filter in someway in HM to get a better ide on how much bigger the pots we loose in this situation is or what % we win the pot?

      :)
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      I don't really understand the question - are you asking what range of hands you can call with in the BB against a button min-raise?

      This will depend a lot on your opponent's pre-flop tendancies (how many hands is he opening on the btn?) and how he will play post-flop but bear in mind that being out of position is a big disadvantage and you should avoid putting in more money OOP when you think you probably have the worst hand.

      Also bear in mind that 3-betting will very often be better than calling and that you can 3-bet with hands that are not good enough for you to call.
    • CelebrationMeComeON
      CelebrationMeComeON
      Basic
      Joined: 29.10.2010 Posts: 4
      I guess I am trying to find a way to calculate how often in % we need to win the pot. So I know how loose I can call.

      you are saying "you should avoid putting in more money OOP when you think you probably have the worst hand."

      a hand like 98 we know that 90% of the time we have the worst hand this is still a hand i am going to call with very often.
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by CelebrationMeComeON
      I guess I am trying to find a way to calculate how often in % we need to win the pot. So I know how loose I can call.

      you are saying "you should avoid putting in more money OOP when you think you probably have the worst hand."

      a hand like 98 we know that 90% of the time we have the worst hand this is still a hand i am going to call with very often.
      a hand like 98s is against a lot of big hands 40/60 so it is not that bad the problem is out of position you have the wrong end of the stick. You much better calling in this case from late position if the raise is not too high and if your post flop skills are up to the task. then you can exploit your opponent's range
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Against a button min raise, the villan's range is really weak.

      Drawing hands in general play badly out of position - you rarely hit a strong hand and rarely get paid off when you do.
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by JonikoP
      Against a button min raise, the villan's range is really weak.

      Drawing hands in general play badly out of position - you rarely hit a strong hand and rarely get paid off when you do.

      +1
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Try folding 980 and reraising with broadways instead. That usually quietens them down a bit. :) Gl.
    • alexgeor
      alexgeor
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.01.2010 Posts: 56
      get a tracker + hud. if he steals alot 3bet him even with air. DONT call from the BB.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      get a tracker + hud. if he steals alot 3bet him even with air.


      ONLY do this if he steals alot AND has a high fold to 3 bet percentage OR a high fold to c-bet percentage. Three betting a polarised range without reads is bad. Plus, watch the MBML pre-flop play videos, they are very, very good.
    • RGOD2
      RGOD2
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 34
      If your Opponent is 2 betting or should I say just Doubling the blind it means there are a few options . He is either making a positional play with a weak hand or has seen one picture Card and is deciding to go with this . But Heed my words depending on the table stlye if it has gotten tight alot of players will 2 bet with a great hand as they feel it will still entice a Call from a "wide range" of Players.
      So in this Spot if you sense Weakness go Ahead and 3 Bet his raise to get Additional Information wither to continue or Take it down .