Calling raises IP then getting double barrelled

    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Do you advise this if you think you have a reasonable read on what range a person is opening? Like if the CO is a player who you know opens 30% from that position opens for the standard raise and you have AQo on the button would you flat here? I see no value in raise because if he ships on you, you have to fold, and he folds mostly dominated hands to a 3-bet meaning you get no value for you decent hand IP

      Also, If you make a pair on a board like KQ3 with AQo, do you give up here? I presume not on the flop, but if he barrels the turn is it a fold? I find that a lot of guys even at 5/10c are double barreling me and I'm finding that I'm folding middle pair kinds of hands quite often. Not having the initiative makes the hand really tough to play.

      Another example is I have 99 and I limp call from any position. Flop comes K 6 3 rainbow and be bets the flop. I check call the flop and another undercard to my 9's comes. do I lead into him this time? Or just check/call again? or Check/fold? Maybe I'm just thinking that people are double barreling with air more often when they really are?

      Any thoughts on this kind of play would be helpful.
  • 9 replies
    • Idle7
      Idle7
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.09.2010 Posts: 41
      Make a reraise, if he shoves, he probably has it and you can make an easy fold.
    • lynius
      lynius
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2011 Posts: 382
      That sounds like a good plan there meemawuk. However, for OP, I'd be careful about limping in with 99 from any position, I'd personally save that for the cutoff or button.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by Idle7
      Make a reraise, if he shoves, he probably has it and you can make an easy fold.
      This is pretty bad because all weaker hands will fold and only better hands will call or shove. If they call you have no idea where you are and will have to fold to another bet and if they shove you fold anyway.

      Check\call for pot control if you beat a good portion of their betting range and fold if you don't is probably best for the example with 99. AQ will depend on the situation and the opponent, I mean, someone betting 30% from the CO, you flat - How often does he have the K or KQ? Not very, those hands make up such a small part of his range you could donk the flop, check\call or check\raise depending on the opponent. If you think he's gonna double barrell with air\draws then you're laughing.

      In the exact situation you've stated you flatted pre so have left a lot of hands in villains range that you beat so what are you worried about on a KQ3 flop when you have AQ? That would be AA, KK, Kx, AK, QQ, 33, KQ. What do you beat that he'll probably at least fire one barrell with and possibly two if he's aggro? QJ, QT, Q9s, AJ, AT, Axs, 77-JJ possibly 22-66 (maybe these won't fire twice.. JT erm I'm at work so can't think too much about this but in the situation you've given as an example you can take them to value town. Reads are mega important... Each time you notice someone double barrelling a lot make a note and maybe call em down once or twice to see what they're playing like that.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Turning your hand into a bluff can be ok if bluffing that player is really profitable. If someone is opening with a 30% range, and he responds to 3-bets by folding 25% while 4-betting with 5%, then it is very profitable to 3-bet with ATC (unless the blinds realize this and cold-4-bet lightly). If it is so profitable to 3-bet, then it may be hard to beat this by calling, even if that is the normal way to play. If your opponent is calling 3-bets out of position, then the value of your AQ is relevant, and those calls usually set up profitable situations for you.

      Btw, if you have 99 in the CO or button, you should strongly consider raising rather than limping, particularly if the pot is unopened or if the other limpers are loose.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well nobody can tell you if you should 3-bet AQ BU vs CO vs random opponent. It really depends on the type of player he is. If he does fold 90% vs 3-bets CO vs BU, its definetly profitable to 3-bet him, but if would be more +EV to take flop in position against him since you will get more value out of his AJ KQ QJ type of hands which his folding pre and you only win a smallish pot.

      On the other hand there are many people that call 3-bet way to lose and will call you with KQ QJ and other SC and low PP in which case you pretty much have to 3-bet them since you will win the pot a lot of the time when nobody hits anything and you will have them dominated more often then they dominate you. They also rarely flop a hand thats strong enough to whitstand more barrels and you will win a lot of pots against those type of players.

      When you do get 4-bet from my experience most micro players don't 4-bet nearly enough to 5-bet and get it in with AQ unless they're a total maniac. They are way more likely to call KQ type of hand then 4-bet bluff with it so imo its a pretty easy fold once you do get 4-bet on.

      As for 99 hand. You generally shouldn't be limping any hands, especially low to mid pockets. They're impossible to play when you don't have initiative, especially OOP. Once you start C/C mid pairs your hand is so face up that any competent player will either barrel you off your hand or will be forced to make hero calls while playing a guessing game. Imo c/f 88 on Q25 board is a better option then C/C OOP vs any good player. If his bad and doesn't barrel enough you can obviously call once. Personally i prefer donking out those type of boards if i do CC 88 from blinds.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      This is exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for. 99 has become an open raise from me from pretty much any position but the likes of 22 - 66 i'm limping hoping to get multiple limpers to get a multiway pot happening so that I can get paid If I make a set. If I for some reason limp/call with 77-99 and I'm OOP with a 2nd pair hand, I prefer to just donk the flop at the micros because people fold often enough when they miss for it to be profitable.

      About check calling the flop with a 2nd pair hand turning your hand face up making it exploitable: I feel like donking it is equally as face up and equally if not moreso exploitable (unless you balance it with donking sets etc), it's just that people at the micros don't often know how to deal with it. I'm sure there is the occasional player who'll raise you there with AK or other missed Ax on a Queen high board thinking you can easily be donk-folding with worse than Qx in this spot.

      Interesting discussion nonetheless.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well the problem with limping 22-66 is that the only way you can then win the pot is by hitting a set, and when you do hit a set its hard to get a lot of money into the pot in limped pots. But i guess in micros you do get paid enough for it to be profitable.

      As for donking i find that there are 2 type's of players. They either fold to donks to much, or just raise every donk bet. If someone has like 90% raise donkbet then i wont donk a mid pair into him but i will definitely donk/call against him when i do flop a set, or donk/3bet with strong and monster draws. On the other hand if he folds to donk bets over 60% of the time im always donking my air into him since its the only way to win the pot.

      And your range when you flat in the blinds is definitely stronger then his BU/CO opening range so you should get some respect when you do donk out and so you should donk bluff his BU/CO range more often then his UTG range.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Well the problem with limping 22-66 is that the only way you can then win the pot is by hitting a set, and when you do hit a set its hard to get a lot of money into the pot in limped pots. But i guess in micros you do get paid enough for it to be profitable.

      As for donking i find that there are 2 type's of players. They either fold to donks to much, or just raise every donk bet. If someone has like 90% raise donkbet then i wont donk a mid pair into him but i will definitely donk/call against him when i do flop a set, or donk/3bet with strong and monster draws. On the other hand if he folds to donk bets over 60% of the time im always donking my air into him since its the only way to win the pot.

      And your range when you flat in the blinds is definitely stronger then his BU/CO opening range so you should get some respect when you do donk out and so you should donk bluff his BU/CO range more often then his UTG range.
      Good post. I was pretty much describing spots where you limp call OOP preflop (in early position with the intention of generating a multiway pot). Flatting from the blinds and donking the flop is an interesting one. Obviously I don't have the experience but from what you're saying it could generate some interesting situations and some difficult situations for your opponent.

      Say you donk a Q62 rainbow board after calling a MP raise from the blinds with 99, he flats you, and the turn is T/J completing the rainbow or adding a FD. Are you barrelling the turn? I suppose its dependant on the opponent and I'm thinking about it more than I should be at NL10...

      for the record, I now have to add some extra donk betting stats to my hud... lol
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well on such a dry flop like Q62 rainbow he pretty much has a pair when he calls you and i don't expect him to call the turn with any worse pairs or fold anything better so i just give up since i don't think i can ever get him off a Q by the river. If a flop is like Q56ss then im way more likely to bet again since his calling any flush/strait draws again. But its still a shitty spot on the river when the draws miss since your OOP and you check to him. But then again it always sucks to play OOP.

      Generally PP are worse hands to barrel with since when you are behind you usually only have 2 outs to suck out. While when you have 67 on Q62 board you have 5 outs to suck out against a Q and you will probably get a big river bet in as well when you do hit one of your outs. Especially with those type of hands you have to look when you can hit some backdoor strait and FD to give you enough equity to barrel again.