Have you ever had Downswing/bad session and you weren't happy about that?

    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      Hello everyone!

      I'm having just a break and as usually I was relaxing on forum, reading hands new topics and so on.

      I was just frightened how bad people really take badbeats, suckouts and so on (downswing included) ... I am not the best player and I don't want to act as I am. However, I think that I'm very good at dealing with badbeats and downswing...

      I just don't get why you all are so crazy about suckouts and badbeats :) because if you know poker and you study it, it really doesn't matter if you've won 10 000$ today on cashgame or "lost" the same amount right?

      The right question should be if you invested 10 000$ for making 25 000$ in the future or you just lost 10 000$ because you are playing bad and actually you could have lost even more :)

      For myself, I don't care about winnings and you shouldn't either, actually the "money" aren't money anymore. It's your investment, you should realize that!

      Everymove which is +EV is good move and you don't have to care about result, because when you DID that move you've actually won money already. Think about it!

      Are you a winning player? Do you play for example NL25 and you just lost 10× AA to KK/QQ and 5× Sets to overset or got suckouted on river 2 outer :) ?

      Are you upset? Are you sad/depressed? Are you thinking about others as fishes and stupid *******?

      And now tell me or better tell yourself. Should you feel like that? You have made great +EV moves and you actually made money! Yes, you did! Isn't it great feeling? To win even if you've lost? You must realize this thing, to be succesful.

      No more whining about downswings, no more whining about badbeats, because there is no reason to whine/blame others as bad they are. We should celebrate, because you are becoming rich in next few thousands hands :) )

      Be happy about your dowswings about your badbeats about your bad sessions... !
      [I]This is for winning players! If you're loosing one, you are screwed ...! And actually I am writing this for myself, I am having really bad downswing (example up fits be greatly :D ) ...

      However, I gotta say, I am still HAPPY and I don't care! You should not care too because it can have a huge impact on your winnings! Eventually people are loosing not "IN" downswings but actually because of Mindset in downswing which affects their game!

      Cya
      I hope it helped :)
  • 32 replies
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      Interesting thoughts, however it certainly has made me think you are a begginer playing lower stakes.

      Many players can grind for 6 months, make 10k and lose 9k in 1 month, that is a downswing, have you experienced something like this before, you are really fine mentally with that happening to you ? :D

      Have you been playing with thousands before or tens of dollars? When you play for big money that can make you win thousands and lose thousands each day, it has a much larger impact for sure.

      What limits do you play and how long have you been playing for?
    • nivusic
      nivusic
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      Joined: 20.10.2009 Posts: 22
      This is the right way to go no matter what stakes you're playing. Ofcourse it's getting more difficult higher the stakes go but you should always be thinking in the way he described above...

      Now the key question is you shoudn't be happy just because your play was +EV. It's very important to always try to maximize your profits. Rethink every hand played and try to find a better way to play it. LEARN ! Crucial thing is to win max what is possible in every hand. A lot of players are concentrated to lose min when they're behind, and dont think so much about winning max when you're ahead. All those difficult spots of valuebetting the river or just check behind are crucial in the long run as much as folding at right spots ...
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
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      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      To thread starter:

      Say the same bullshit when you will be on a -50BI downswing, keep playing the best game you can, and still not rising from the bottom. Then I'll look at your words seriously :P
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      To thread starter:

      Say the same bullshit when you will be on a -50BI downswing, keep playing the best game you can, and still not rising from the bottom. Then I'll look at your words seriously :P
      +1

      It easy to say this is the way to think and so on but when you have been playing for 3 months to get your roll to 2k and then you lose 1k in 3 days let's see you remain 100 percent confident and keep on fighting :D It happened to me many times i know the feeling
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      Well I had 30bi downswing ... And ye I was pretty ok .. but still it weren't so big money I know :) I am not playing NL100 or so ...

      But I am pretty sure I will be same confident as I was ... Just because I am using very tight BRM (90bi) and I know how poker works :) + I don't see chips as money it's not money for me anymore ...

      Btw. I wanted just help, so srry if you're mad about this topic )
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
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      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      You're so positive you shouldn't be playing poker. You should be travelling around the world spreading the good word :P
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      The funny thing is that you agree you're not playing for big money, however you are only estimating your feelings being the same when you lose 100 dollars to when you lose 5 thousand. I can assure you, it will deff not be the same feeling.


      Just imagine ur life, you decide to play poker professionaly, u play 5+ hours every single day for 6 months, and in 3 days u lose 80 percent of the money that u spent 5+ hours a day playing to get.

      Are you seriously telling me you can estimate you will be fine with the feeling? And yes you say you lost 30 bi before on baby limits and say i will be fine on higher, but the truth is, 30 bi is absolutely nothing, imagine u lost 80 bi of your 90, and now imagine it on nl100+


      Now read back what you said and repeat, "I am sure I will be fine cause i lost 30 bi on nl10"

      When you rely on poker, dedicate most of your time to it, and this stuff happens :D Post how you feel. Post how u feel when u need to pay rent and u just lost 50 percent of your roll :D

      I think now you start to get the picture.

      I am not trying to be harsh but i want you to understand this is very possible and can deffinately happen to anyone. :) So when people cry about downswing like 10-20 bi, that's not even a downswing, try losing 50+ bi when u need it most, when all your hard work just dissapears in 3 days, then you feel like u ruined ur life, and the only thing u rely on to make you money only does the opposite :D When you reach that stage hollaa back up here and look back at what you wrote lol "I lost 30 bi on nl10, I know I will feel the same if it happened on higher limits"

      Another question, are you even good enough to play higher? As you go higher, less skill edge = more bi swings, so trust me, you are not even sure if you are even good enough to reach the stage to feel it these feelings ^^

      Gl at the tables
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
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      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Another thing is that you may encounter a big downswing but don't care about it, because these money means nothing to you. For example I was playing 2$ PLO HU SNG with some dumbass who started whining about my "bad play" after getting his ass whipped. When I told him to stfu he offered me a rematch at 50$ SNG. Now if I had acceppted that and lost - I would feel terrible because of the lost money. If this idiot would have lost he would feel bad about his ego, but he wouldn't give a fuck about the money, because he still has too much of them.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I agree completely with OP.

      ZeMammuth, if he (Or anyone else for that matter) has a BRM plan that they stick to he will NEVER lose 80 out of his 90BI in such a short amount of time, because he should be moving down long before that. If he is confident with his BRM plan and mindset, there is no reason why he shouldn't be claiming he'd be fine with going on a downswing at higher limits. Hell, we see people on here all the time getting pissed with a $2 loss at NL2 because of a suckout, and then we see many people simply dealing with their bad beat at NL200. As you gain experience you realise this shit happens, and it's nothing to be worried about, because in the long run it was a profitable situation. I myself get no more worked up with bad beats at NL50 than I did at NL2, but cannot say about higher limits.

      However I do get a bit annoyed and upset when i'm on a downswing, I have to admit that. Because no matter which way I look at it, this is money i've earned from nothing and to see it taken away from me pisses me off a little bit, I can't deny it. What I can say is that this doesn't affect my game at all, I can control that. But, in relation to the original post, the thing that tilts me the most, the thing that gets me angry, it's not bad beats, it's when a hand plays out and I realise I made a mistake and played it terribly.
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      [quote]Originally posted by Wriggers
      I agree completely with OP.

      ZeMammuth, if he (Or anyone else for that matter) has a BRM plan that they stick to he will NEVER lose 80 out of his 90BI in such a short amount of time

      This is not true, because even if u move down u can still lose bi, and a downswing does not have to be quick, it can be a long and painfull process, u could be on a 5 month downswing slowly losing bi every month.

      Ofc i did not mean litterally lose 80 bi out of 90 cause u do eventually move down, but i mean steadily losing bi's over a period of time.

      However u can lose 80-90 bi if for example u r a pro that, u will never have all of ur money on the site, u would keep 100 bi in and keep taking money out, so u can easilly lose 80 out of 90 bi without moving down, cause u gotta put money back in.

      Wriggers u just another person agreeing with someone that hasn't felt it yet when you haven;t either :D None of us are at the level to know.

      The way I saw this post was a brag from someone who hasen't experienced anything yet, in the form of advice for beginners when in reality u cant give advice about something you have no knowledge about :)
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      Dont listen to me anyway, i am just a fish that plays nl10 and has been b/e for 2 years, I don't have what it takes to be a poker player.

      I am trying to bring other people down with me cause i am unintelligent
    • nivusic
      nivusic
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      Joined: 20.10.2009 Posts: 22
      ZeMammuth
      you're just talking trash. I'll just comment on this one : In 3 days you can lose all that you've worked for past 5 months. This is exactly what happens when you don't have mindset the guy described in the first post.
      I cover all my crucial life expenses out of poker earnings for a year now and I had a lot of downswings but never got even close to losing 90% of my BR in 3 days. If that happen to you then you're a gambler not someone who is trying to be poker pro.

      And all that stuff that you have more money aside... Well if you do then you didn't lose 90% of your BR.

      People have to realise that good playing skills are not even close enough to make a living out of poker. Mindset and BRM are just as crucial.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      +1
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      I am not speaking trash i am trash
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      :) I'm glad that the discussion took place ;) ... I think it will inspire and help a lot of people :)

      Yop ZeMa - I am a newbie I admit it ^^ ... I just wanted to help more of the microstakes players because I think at these lvls people are "whining" about the variance at most :)

      Thx to all for your posts here :) I hope a lot of "heat heads" will read this one and your experiences!

      Bb
      24tabler ))
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
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      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I would be tempted to say the BRM and Mindset are more important!

      ZeMammuth, you said that "you don't know what it feels like to lose 80% of what you have earned over the past 5 months in 3 days". No, you're right, I don't, nor does OP, but that's because of BRM. The whole idea of BRM is to stop this happening during a downswing. And if you still manage to do this, it's not a simple, variance driven downswing, it's tilt and bad play along with it.

      No, I haven't dealt with a downswing at higher limits, but that is because I haven't reached them yet. I've dealt with a downswing at the level I play, and no it is not pleasant, but who are you to say that other people can't deal with it? Is it possible that OP just has a better mindset than you?

      Last month I had my biggest dowswing yet, going from +$400 in the first 20k hands, to -$150 by the end of the month. But how do you know I can't deal with it? I dealt with it just fine and i'm back on track now with some more lessons about dealing with poker.
    • ZeMammuth
      ZeMammuth
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 704
      what the hell is this "Brm" Me lose like 1k today
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well a downswing is a downswing, no matter if you play NL10 or NL1k. If you can't handle losing 50BI on NL1k then you shouldn't be playing it in the first place. And a 50BI downswing is not that uncommon.

      @Wriggers I agree that mindset is definitely more important then technical game. No matter how good you are, if you go on monkey tilt after losing 2BI that really doesn't matter if you spew 10BI because of that. You simply can't play poker for a living if you can't handle your mental state.

      But still there is a difference between OP, who obviously play micro's as a hobby or trying to improve or w/e and a professional poker player that does that for a living.

      For an OP it really doesn't matter if he has a breakeven year or loses some money, since its not his main source of income so in the end, the results of his poker sessions don't really have a negative effect on his life or his finances, only a positive one in case he wins some money, and he can just move down from NL10 to NL2 if he loses it. If you somewhat stick to BRM you never have to deposit if you have at least half a brain. Worst case scenario if he bust is to deposit 50 bucks.

      On the other hand a professional player relies on his poker winnings to pay rent and bills in the end of the month. So in his case having a breakeven year means his pretty much fucked, let alone a losing year. Granted that if you have a breakeven year in which you put in a lot of volume, you might consider a change of career, but you can still easily have a stretch of 3-5 losing or break even months, in which case you have to move down or deposit your savings, playing less comfortably which definitely has an effect on your game. And if you move down a limit, you will be making less money, which means you have to put in more hour then you'd like to, while a recreational player can play just as much as he want's to since its his hobby not his job.
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
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      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      just wanted to comment that i think OP has good intentions(e.g. look at his blog on how he helps ppl 24table, although that is really not the way to go imo), but he should gain more credentials before dishing out advice. not to say that what he is saying is wrong(or right), but he needs to be speaking base on experience. and if his experience is just NL10, then he's not going to gain alot of credit from the guys at higher limits.
      anyway good work OP. keep working on it and contributing to this forum. it beats those who post abt poker being rigged and whining about bad beats.
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