Folding kings preflop?

    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      Hi,
      After running into aces 3 times today with KK, plus a lot more times before, it got me thinking... can you lay down KK preflop to a 4-bet?
      I'm not talking about midstacks/shortstacks/total fish, there it's an easy push. But imagine this: you're against a more or less tight player, he raises 4bb. you reraise to 12-14BB and he 4-bets to ~40BB. What hands does he do this with? Only KK and AA come to mind. QQ in most cases just calls the 3-bet, same goes for JJ-TT.
      So, in which situations do you fold KK preflop?

      1) When the original raiser 4-bets (assuming he's relatively tight)
      2) When there's been 3 raises before you (OK, unlikely but still :D )
      3) Same as 2, but you're one of the raisers (either open raiser or 3-better). e.g you raise, CO 3-bets, BB 4-bets
      4) Never fold KK's preflop!

      This is almost worth a poll, don't you think? ;)
  • 14 replies
    • Drakhor
      Drakhor
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2008 Posts: 554
      Definitely #4! If there's 3 raisers, there's a big chance they raise with a lower pocket pair than yours, or with something like AJ, AQ, AK, so there's only 1 ace left in the deck. And what are the chances that it shows up in the community cards?

      But then again, what do I know? I'm just a Bronze... :rolleyes:
    • rafayel66
      rafayel66
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.02.2007 Posts: 3,027
      Being bronze means nothing :O . All suggestions are good to hear..

      I would answer something like : 1), 2) and 3) :D . Feeling > 4). If you can be almost sure he's holding AA, a fold is good. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think folding KK preflop is a big mistake :rolleyes:
    • drachdudek
      drachdudek
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2007 Posts: 656
      :D fellings...:) :) Xylere would say, "forget about fellings", but u think feelings can sometimes save you...i had AK today in NL25. Villain raised 6BB..i sad WTF! he raised a lot...and said to my self "for shure he is holding AA"...of course i went all-in and he was holding AA :)
    • lira1977
      lira1977
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2006 Posts: 15
      Yeh, the same thing happened to me yesterday at Mansion. Fortunately I was holding AA
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! 4 ! :D

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • KillaKHAN
      KillaKHAN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2007 Posts: 660
      double post
    • KillaKHAN
      KillaKHAN
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2007 Posts: 660
      Originally posted by Drakhor
      Definitely #4! If there's 3 raisers, there's a big chance they raise with a lower pocket pair than yours, or with something like AJ, AQ, AK, so there's only 1 ace left in the deck. And what are the chances that it shows up in the community cards?

      But then again, what do I know? I'm just a Bronze... :rolleyes:
      reread the post...

      you can lay kings down but I guess you need some good stats from the Villain.

      His pf raise puts a tight player on any pocket pair (probably 77+), AK, AQ, maybe AJs, maybe KQs.

      His 4 bet should narrow it to AA, KK maybe QQ, JJ or AK.

      I'd fold depending on the info in 2 (if this means raise, 3bet, 3 bet) and 3 maybe.[/quote]
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      The problem is you need to have 100% accurate feelings to make this fold +EV. If you are wrong in 1 out of 4 spots (he is holding QQ, for instance), it becomes -EV.

      4)
    • whipflip15
      whipflip15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2006 Posts: 284
      With 100BB i am not folding unless i have some kind of super read. Deep stacked i may be folding but i would need some kind of read.

      EDIT: It depends on what limit. I've just started playing 100NL and found more people 3 betting light which results in 4betting with AK, QQ more often. So i'm not folding on NL100
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Without some very good reads on villain I'm not folding KK PF.

      Well, and against a player that has a PFR of 1%, I think it's safe to fold KK after he 4-bet...
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      When tight BSS UTG 4-bets I lay down my KK almost every time:)
      Happily that never almost happens.
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      i think your image counts here too ... if you have a preaty tight image and a tight player 4 bets you may fold sometimes ... if you have a lag image you cant fold it never ...
      anyway for 100 bb i will never fold kk preflop
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      you still can not guess with 80% accuracy, especially on higher limits, where even very tight players are capable of making strange moves from time to time)
    • Muggs
      Muggs
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.03.2007 Posts: 69
      I have the same...