[NL2-NL10] NL5 FR 98s MP2

    • clandestineAl
      clandestineAl
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2010 Posts: 569
      Did I play it right by betting the turn when my hand improved or should I just have C/F?

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $6.91
      MP3:
      $2.01

      0.02/0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy.com Elephant 0.102 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9:spade: , 8:spade:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, MP3 calls $0.20, 4 folds.

      Flop: ($0.47) T:spade: , 8:diamond: , 3:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.31, MP3 calls $0.31.

      Turn: ($1.09) J:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.72, MP3 calls $0.72.

      River: ($2.53) 2:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 checks.

      Final Pot: $2.53

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      Hero shows (9s 8s)
      MP3 shows a pair of jacks (Qc Js)

      MP3 wins with a pair of jacks (Qc Js)
  • 10 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Hi,

      Did I play it right by betting the turn when my hand improved or should I just have C/F?
      -I think turn barrel is fine, although likely it is hard him to call with worse hands, so I´d also might consider for pot control and c/c.
      Can´t really c/f pair+oesd against player whos flop calling range is likely very wide.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello clandestineAl,

      Against loose-passive player you can't really go for Check/Call mode against his stack. You ain't gonna get correct implied odds. At the same time I doubt that he is ever bluffing the turn anyways to make our Check/Call profitable in long run with our pair of 8x.

      For given reason above we are either 2nd barreling or just Check/Folding. While he is pretty passive I guess you can as well Check vs his stack and not commit too much yourself. Or if you even plan to bet (which is not really greatest idea, not many worse will Call) then I'd bet a bit smaller on turn ~$0,60 vs his stack and then reevaluate further actions.

      Best Regards.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Just wanted to illustrate why I think c/f is bad idea on the turn even against passive player.
      For example AJ/AT we have 30% equity:

      board: T83J
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      98 30.33% 981,072 5,832
      AT, AJ 69.67% 2,257,128 5,832

      If we add 77 that he might easily bet turn for protection/value then we´re ahead of his valuebetting range and folding would be big mistake:

      board: T83J
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      98 50.72% 1,232,100 3,888
      AT, 77 49.28% 1,197,036 3,888
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      And tell me what you gonna do with the equity? If you know that kind of information that you have 30% equity? What's the information giving you? What kind of math proves that you can Call it profitable in long run? If you want to avoid him betting with worse (passive player, doubt he would even do that) then rather just block-bet yourself.

      And why do you only add like 1-2 hands in his range? We can't talk of an opponent having only specific hands, we are always talking about ranges, ranges ranges. You rather should ask if we do have implied odds to Call on turn vs his betting range and what kind of implied odds we need for river.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I make here two assumptions, which should be right:
      - players floating range is quite wide that flop, since players would generally not like to fold too often (especially 32/0)
      - even with passive stats they would make moves (bluff) and bet for value hands that are worse than ours.

      If I take 32% I´m ahead on the turn:

      board: T83J
      Hand Equity Wins Ties
      98 56.85% 334,192 13,865
      32% 43.15% 251,943 13,865

      I´m fine c/f overcards where I know I don´t have fold equity if I barrel, but I won´t agree c/f pair+oesd giving loose opponent that much respect, that he would always bet there better hands than mine.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      a) He is never calling you with the same range he called you preflop, so 32% is way off.
      b) If you are putting still him on such a range then why not just Bet yourself and gain value from worse?
      c) Doesn't make sense to Call something like $0,70 on turn while he doesn't have much left anyways, then you can at the same time vs them Check/Shove. What you gonna hope he is Checking behind his hands on river, even bluffs?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      he may call me with worse hands, but I´d rather see him betting his floats and gain value that way+ if we bet we likely have to call shove anyway getting quite good odds.
      Reason why I don´t c/rai is that he would b/c with better hands that would check back river and take their free showdown (as it was this case) and I can shove always myself if I hit my draw (if I think he would check back too often)
      With overpairs and better I´d rather c/rai to get value from worse hands if I don´t bet/call turn.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      he may call me with worse hands, but I´d rather see him betting his floats and gain value that way+ if we bet we likely have to call shove anyway getting quite good odds.

      Well and why do you think he is ever betting there with worse floats/draws? If he can get a free card then he most likely will take it than bet it if he is a loose passive player.

      Reason why I don´t c/rai is that he would b/c with better hands that would check back river and take their free showdown (as it was this case) and I can shove always myself if I hit my draw (if I think he would check back too often)

      What do you mean he would b/c with better hands? He would less than 80 cents left, he may easily even feel committed with hands like AK/AQ/KQ or whatsoever draws which ain't gonna pay on river. Do you really think he would ever check behind on river with his better hands here? Tx? Could be, but at the same time against them you could as well gain fold equity. :) Plus we ain't gonna win by Check/Calling against those hands, or either you ain't gonna get correct implied odds to Check/Call vs them on turn.

      With overpairs and better I´d rather c/rai to get value from worse hands if I don´t bet/call turn.

      That's just horrible to Check/Raise vs passive opponent in this spot also. I don't really see why we should do that, standard bet also for me with overpairs to protect my hand from any kind of combo-hand.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Well that is my experience that players would bet if you check to them they would bet. They would not always bet hands that has showdown value or draws but I generally don´t expect to play their draws too passively once they called pf and flop.

      If he is checking back QJ, he would also check back there Jx hands. So we don´t get stacked by better hands, like for example Q8/QT/T9 that would b/c turn (if he would bet that spot, but would not bet turn and shove river)

      That's just horrible to Check/Raise vs passive opponent in this spot also. I don't really see why we should do that, standard bet also for me with overpairs to protect my hand from any kind of combo-hand.
      - that I disagree. First of all he would not bet hands that would always beat us and second he would call with worse hands, since he get too good pot odds and usually they are not b/f turn after getting that far. If we bet he would all his floats, but by let him betting (not saying we should always c/rai turn with overpairs) we get value from hands that he would fold to our turn bet+ we don´t have to worry seeing bad river card being pot committed.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      (not saying we should always c/rai turn with overpairs)

      But you just did and disagree with me. Against passive opponent this is a super standard to bet for value, his calling range may easily consist of a lot 9x hands or any other kind of Qx, weaker pairs which will Call our 2nd barrel and not bet into us when we check.