[NL2-NL10] NL10: AK 4Bet?

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1867436
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BTN: $12.59 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: 1,0, Hands: 23
      SB: $4.62 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 18, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 17
      BB: $4.15 - VPIP: 12, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 17
      UTG: $10.00 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 11, 3B: 10, AF: 1,3, Hands: 74
      Hero (MP): $10.00 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 19, 3B: 5, AF: 4,6, Hands: 56532
      CO: $10.00 - VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, 3B: 11, AF: 5,0, Hands: 40

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with A :spade: K :diamond:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO raises to $0.90, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.40, CO calls $1.50

      Flop: ($4.95) 8 :spade: 9 :diamond: 2 :spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $2.20, Hero folds

      We don't really know that much about CO but should be fine. I am a bit worried because it is a COvsMP situation but I guess that since villain's 3Bet stat is somewhat high even for this sample size this ought to be fine.
      Obviously 4bet/calling.
  • 16 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Avatars91,

      Ignore the 3bet stat in those situations, especially for just 40 hands. Nor you can't go broke with AKo vs CO range who 3bets vs MP, you just wont do it profitable enough unless you know the guy. Which means that we actually should be even 4bet/Folding there from those situations unless we assume he 3bets loose.

      Best Regards.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Which means that we actually should be even 4bet/Folding there


      1) Would a 4Bet bluff be that good an idea vs almost unknown from these positions?
      2) Even if we do 4Bet him because we can imagine him sometimes 3bet/folding, is it not a 4bet/call because of the odds? Or do you expect him to fold his AK, QQ (if he pushes with AK, QQ+ it is a call)? Because I would imagine that if we expect him to be able to 3bet us loose enough for us to make a 4Bet, I think it would also make sense to assume that he is pushing AK and QQ there. Thus 4bet/folding looks very strange to me in this spot.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) Would a 4Bet bluff be that good an idea vs almost unknown from these positions?

      Why not? :) There ain't like tons of hands which are happy to go broke, especially on those lower stakes people rather ain't 3betting that loose.

      2) Even if we do 4Bet him because we can imagine him sometimes 3bet/folding, is it not a 4bet/call because of the odds? Or do you expect him to fold his AK, QQ (if he pushes with AK, QQ+ it is a call)? Because I would imagine that if we expect him to be able to 3bet us loose enough for us to make a 4Bet, I think it would also make sense to assume that he is pushing AK and QQ there. Thus 4bet/folding looks very strange to me in this spot.

      Well, what's with AK the case? You are just splitting with AK. Now go to equilab and see how our equity is, take win equity not which also includes split. :P
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Well, what's with AK the case? You are just splitting with AK. Now go to equilab and see how our equity is, take win equity not which also includes split.


      Does it also mean that we should not really always 4bet/call when stealing from the CO or BU and when someone behind us 3Bets us unless we expect them to shove a range worse than AK, QQ+? Is from these positions a 4bet/fold some sort of a standard with AK against relatively unknown fullstack players? Because we can never really assume that they are going broke with a worse range than AK, QQ+. Maybe some go broke with JJ (is it then a call?).
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Well, what's with AK the case? You are just splitting with AK. Now go to equilab and see how our equity is, take win equity not which also includes split.


      Does it also mean that we should not really always 4bet/call when stealing from the CO or BU and when someone behind us 3Bets us unless we expect them to shove a range worse than AK, QQ+? Is from these positions a 4bet/fold some sort of a standard with AK against relatively unknown fullstack players? Because we can never really assume that they are going broke with a worse range than AK, QQ+. Maybe some go broke with JJ (is it then a call?).
      Well, but against that range you are flipping anyways. So we have to assume that he is 3betting light there in those spots or playing back against us. But afterwards as you may imagine the go-broke range for him ain't going to be very loose unless we know it.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So far 4bet/calling with AK from CO and BU was a very standard play for me vs fullstacked unknowns. I guess that's a pretty huge leak, huh?

      Should a good standard then be simply folding to the 3Bet vs unknowns or going for the 4Bet bluff since we have 2 blockers?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      So far 4bet/calling with AK from CO and BU was a very standard play for me vs fullstacked unknowns. I guess that's a pretty huge leak, huh?

      Should a good standard then be simply folding to the 3Bet vs unknowns or going for the 4Bet bluff since we have 2 blockers?
      Well, I wouldn't say huge leak but you ain't gonna earn profit with it either. :P You can easily select AK type of hand from CO and see how you doing against a 3bet. :)
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Should a good standard then be simply folding to the 3Bet vs unknowns or going for the 4Bet bluff since we have 2 blockers?

      I would imagine that folding would maybe even just make more sense than 4bet bluffing since the only thing that separates AK from random Ax or Kx in this aspect is the fact that AK has 2 blockers instead of 1, and I am not going crazy with my 4bet bluffs with just Ax or Kx the 1st time I'm 3betted,. AK is just slightly better and does not really justify a 4Bet bluff out of nowhere.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      Oh my god, I can't believe my eyes, Veriz ..... :f_o:
      4bet/folding AK? Then you're 4bet/calling only KK+ or what?

      It's standard stackoff vs QQ+,AK! Even due the equity you need, just count it... ofc it's not somehow extra +EV, but it still is better than folding, where you're leaving 24bb on the table...

      I don't get using AK as a bluff for 4b/f Oo it's such a waste and nonsense ....

      if you aren't sure if you want to go broke, just call (you dominate him a lot and even playing fit or fold will be better than 4b/f). However, with a unknown you can't be sure if he doesn't go broke with TT+,AQ+ or if he shoves JTs. You just can't fold it when you 4b... When you got +EV call vs QQ+,AK, it can be just better and you're not doing it just for this reason...

      The next thing is that you're doing it for not being exploitable by 5bet if you 4bet AK,QQ,KK,AA and some bluffs and go broke with KK+ (QQ and AK is like 1,5% different in eq vs AK,QQ+ means if you fold AK you fold QQ) ... then you fold at least 60%!!!! (18/30) and obv you can have some bluffs so it means your fold is like 70% and it means your opponent can print money on you!


      4b/c -> call pre (even OOP) -> 4b/fold
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      Oh my god, I can't believe my eyes, Veriz ..... :f_o:
      4bet/folding AK? Then you're 4bet/calling only KK+ or what?

      It's standard stackoff vs QQ+,AK! Even due the equity you need, just count it... ofc it's not somehow extra +EV, but it still is better than folding, where you're leaving 24bb on the table...

      I don't get using AK as a bluff for 4b/f Oo it's such a waste and nonsense ....

      if you aren't sure if you want to go broke, just call (you dominate him a lot and even playing fit or fold will be better than 4b/f). However, with a unknown you can't be sure if he doesn't go broke with TT+,AQ+ or if he shoves JTs. You just can't fold it when you 4b... When you got +EV call vs QQ+,AK, it can be just better and you're not doing it just for this reason...

      The next thing is that you're doing it for not being exploitable by 5bet if you 4bet AK,QQ,KK,AA and some bluffs and go broke with KK+ (QQ and AK is like 1,5% different in eq vs AK,QQ+ means if you fold AK you fold QQ) ... then you fold at least 60%!!!! (18/30) and obv you can have some bluffs so it means your fold is like 70% and it means your opponent can print money on you!


      4b/c -> call pre (even OOP) -> 4b/fold
      Funny part #1 is that I really like your type of players, cause they always Call with AKo being OOP and play them exactly as you said. Fit/Fold, and I earn huge profit from you but you earn from me nothing cause I just know what's your 3bet-calling range and it's never going to be very strong -> which means I can barrel you easily off.

      Who said something about us always folding the hand? We are folding until we also have decent information. It's nothing like he is 3betting from the BTN against our CO range or whatsoever, he is still 3betting from CO vs MP range. Nor his go-broke range ain't gonna be worse than JJ+/AK -> we clearly can't earn profit from it.

      Funny part #2 - exploitable & NL10? Get first to those limits where you actually can be exploited and then start talking about it. You rarely get exploited on those limits and if you get then you rather get exploited when you calling those hands. He can't exploit me cause I am also adjusting accordingly I need and according his 3bet, if he bets a lot then I start also going broke looser, until that I am not doing that.

      Now for conclusion please tell me how can you go broke here profitable enough, against what range do you think we are there? :)
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      I don't call AKo that often and when I do I don't play it fit or fold. All I wanted to say is that 4B/f is so terrible play that you actually will lose less in longrun with this very straightforward attitude.


      Ok we take JJ+,AK as his broke range:

      Let's say he 5b shoves:

      Even though the not best sizing preflop we get:
      we need this much equity 7,6/20,15 => 37,7%

      with AK vs JJ+,AK we get 40,5%
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      I don't call AKo that often and when I do I don't play it fit or fold. All I wanted to say is that 4B/f is so terrible play that you actually will lose less in longrun with this very straightforward attitude.


      Ok we take JJ+,AK as his broke range:

      Let's say he 5b shoves:

      Even though the not best sizing preflop we get:
      we need this much equity 7,6/20,15 => 37,7%

      with AK vs JJ+,AK we get 40,5%
      First of all the equity calculation is wrong cause you didn't take into account that there is also rake, which would make it near 40% equity needed to gain small profit.

      Taken into account that we have off-suited AK:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    39.78%  23.66%  16.13% { AKo }
      UTG+1  60.22%  44.09%  16.13% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

      which means it's at the best break-even. Taken into account we win only 23,66% of the times means we are losing money here in long run without knowing the opponent or his go-broke range. :)
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      rake 5%

      Wp = 201,5 - (201,5*0,05) = 191,425
      Tp = 101,5 - (100,75*0,025) = 98,98125

      W: 0,2366 * 191,425 = 45,291155bb
      T: 0,1613 * 98,98125 = 15,965675625bb
      L: 0,6022 * 100 = 60,22bb

      W+T ? L
      45,291155 + 15,965675625 ??? 60,22
      61,25683062 ??? 60,22

      61,3 > 60,22
      in other words winning 1,11bb everytime I do this ...


      Thank you .... It is +EV! Ofc I believe you will definitely find something you can make your opinion the right one ;)

      Since I have actually never saw you admit any other opinion but yours :) Probably coz I'm just a fish :f_p:

      Cya
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Great to watch that people are good at math, that's only improving your poker knowledge. But now to the part where you accusing me never changing my mind. :) Funny though but it's rather mainly your hands, if you would have been more with us here then you would clearly know what big part of hands I take in the hand evaluation forums and how much I actually have to change my mind. Don't really come here posting into one hand and saying that I never take into account others thoughts, if I wouldn't take I wouldn't even answer you, isn't it so? :)

      Also do you really think it's a way to start your thoughts?
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      Oh my god, I can't believe my eyes, Veriz ..... :f_o:
      After this coming up with 1bb profit? I hope you really joking or I misunderstood it, but seems like you laughing rather at me. If so then I'd ask you an easy and simple question, do you really think a random range will contain 100% of those ranges which you pointed out? 100% JJ, 100% QQ, 100% AKo, 100% AKs? This should give you the answer to either you really earn the +1bb profit in long run which you are actually nagging here.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      " This should give you the answer to either you really earn the +1bb profit in long run which you are actually nagging here."

      :D I knew it was coming ^^... You did it again. :f_biggrin:

      Ofc we will not earn 1bb in longrun! We will actually earn much more (face looser range), because you can't really say that every unknown is somehow regish player who goes allin with JJ+,AK.

      Yes vs these regish guys it's a very small profit (still better than folding and leaving 24bb on the table and waiting for information), however, out there is plenty of fish/lame players who will make this line hugely profitable and that's the reason why we go for it so happily...

      We can always adjust vs 15/14 ft3bet 90 4b range - 0,8% guy, but vs almost unknown this is very standard.

      Btw I'm not laughing at anyone, the 4b/fold is just terrible play imho and I wanted to give something back to the community and be like the people who helped me a lot back then... So I proved it with a very simple math ... Hopefully, at least few beginners read this and I could have helped them ;)
      I'm not really sure if I want to see PSgist play 4b/f with AK vs uknowns 100bb deep ;)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Facing a looser range whilst a CO 3bets a MP? What loose range? You even gave yourself a range already with what you see a normal 3bettor go broke here? Why are you talking about looser range, just to make your situation profitable or what?

      So, where is the problem whilst 4bet/Folding AK from UTG/MP vs for example CO? You even pointed out yourself with your calculations + the ranges given - the ranges which actually don't always 3bet us = negative profit (at the best break-even) for us, why would be it a mistake? :)

      At least give me a realistic reason here and I will agree with you, until you give me one, I can't agree with you cause right now you are just showing me break-even play. Why would you want to take a break-even play which doesn't even earn you anything? Though it might be the problem that you don't understand the positions?