SSS - the right time to fold JJ preflop.

    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Often I see people posting on the boards (not just here, but other forums as well) and complain that SSS doesn't work.

      Very often (usually) they are just not following the strategy very well.

      I've posted before regarding the perils of falling in love with a hand, and learning to lay a "good" hand down, when it's apparent it's not "good enough"

      I've seen many people hang onto a hand when it should be folded. I just had a great example, and thought I would share it.

      JJ is a hand many people wouldn't release until you pry it from their cold, dead fingers. It's a pretty hand, and it comes with a lot of paint, no way can we fold that!

      For that matter, many people won't let go of ANY pocket pair. I see it every day at the tables, someone taking a small pocket pair all the way to the river when it was clear to everyone (but them) they were dominated from the start.

      In this hand I folded JJ preflop when it became obvious it was no good. As a short stacker, it would have been very easy to lose a buy-in on this hand, even before seeing the flop.

      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      BTN: $43.40
      SB: $28.10
      BB: $22.60
      UTG: $15.90
      UTG+1: $15.55
      UTG+2: $23
      Hero (MP1): $4.65
      MP2: $20.90
      CO: $14.50

      Pre-Flop: J:spade: J:heart: dealt to Hero (MP1)
      UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.50, UTG+2 raises to $1, 3 folds, BTN calls $1, SB folds, BB calls $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.50

      Flop: ($4.10) 9:club: Q:diamond: 9:heart: (4 Players)
      BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets $1, BTN folds, BB calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1

      Turn: ($7.10) 7:spade: (3 Players)
      BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets $2.50, BB calls $2.50, UTG+1 calls $2.50

      River: ($14.60) Q:spade: (3 Players)
      BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks

      Results: $14.60 Pot ($0.70 Rake)
      BB showed 9:diamond: 9:spade: (four of a kind, Nines) and WON $13.90 (+$9.40 NET)
      UTG+1 mucked 2:club: 2:spade: and LOST (-$4.50 NET)
      UTG+2 mucked K:heart: K:diamond: and LOST (-$4.50 NET)

      Now, let's disregard the luckbox flopping the four 9's, he wasn't the one I was concerned about, since I folded preflop before he even got to act. Being beat by a lower pair will happen, you can't do anything about that. Your goal is to get your money in the middle with the best hand, and our JJ certainly was beating him to begin with.

      The mistake would have been playing against the KK. HIS bet was the one I knew was beating me, and was the reason for the laydown. In the end, they both would have beat me, but one I didn't have control over, the other I did.

      When you play the SSS, you only get a small percentage of playable hands. It can be easy to get excited when you do finally get a hand, and then push "all in!" when it's not the right decision. It doesn't take many of these mistakes to overcome the advantage you gain as a short stacker.

      This is why it's very important to follow the strategy closely, and don't try to improvise as you go, or mix it up with some other combination of strategies you've seen or read somewhere, or come up with on your own. The SSS is mathematically sound, it's proven, and it does work, but it's up to you to understand it and follow it.

      Good skill to you!

      If this would be more appropriate in another section of the forum, please accept my apologies and feel free to move it.
  • 12 replies
    • hunt32
      hunt32
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.02.2008 Posts: 216
      SSS states that in case of a raise and reraise you play only AA and KK, if you are pushing JJ, QQ or AK here you are not playing correctly.

      End of story... bye bye
    • overson
      overson
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.04.2008 Posts: 195
      So 2 things:

      1 with JJ to KK if someone makes a raise that covers my small stack do I call or know that they have AA(since one raise is all-in)?

      2 when or should you always go all-in or call a bet with pot odds(ie double your stack or 3 players) even with a scary flop and you have nothing. This seems rather complicated.
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Originally posted by hunt32
      SSS states that in case of a raise and reraise you play only AA and KK, if you are pushing JJ, QQ or AK here you are not playing correctly.

      End of story... bye bye
      Judge Chamberlain Haller
      Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection. Overruled.
      Human beings, as a species, learn by example. It's the entire reason for the existence of things such as schools, libraries, books, training videos, educational web sites, boot camps, coachings, and even poker strategy discussion forums. You are obviously the exception that proves the rule.

      If everyone WAS playing correctly, there would be no reason for the existance of a site like this one. There would be no need to post hands or discuss hand historys.

      The "Sample Hands" sections of this (and many other) sites are filled with hands that people have played correctly, however there is still merit in posting and discussing them. Other people, who were not born with the "knowledge of all things" that you obviously were, might actually learn from them.

      Every day at the tables, people play hands "incorrectly". (including me). I made this post because every single day I see people overplaying pairs. (In fact, we could discuss the guy in this very hand that held onto his dueces for dear life, all the way to the river, probably praying to hit another one, when he was obviously beaten)

      Normally, according to the SSS posted on this site, when someone has a hand worthy of raising, you raise it 4x the Big Blind.

      Let's change the conditions of this hand for just a moment. UTG+1 just calls, instead of minraises with his dueces, and UTG+2 raises to the same $1 just as he did.

      The Hero in this instance would have pushed all in, since he would have to then raise it to 3x that raise, or $3. This would have been more than half of his remaining stack of $4.65, so right there, he would have had to push all-in, preflop, on an initial raise of $1.

      Now, back to this hand. UTG+1 did a minraise. and UTG+2 then raised that, again, to $1. Yes, there was a raise and a reraise, but the raise facing you is only to the same $1 that would have allowed the hero to push all in just a moment ago.

      There are posts on these forums, as well as others which discuss whether a minraise should be treated as a raise, or a call. One could certainly argue in both directions whether the Hero in this example should have pushed, or folded.

      It is these types of situations that make discussing the hands valuable, and although YOU may not gain anything from the analyzation of the hand, it's very likely that somewhere, someone just starting with SSS who would have pushed here, might recognize a leak in his game and it just might, maybe make him a little bit better of a player.

      I conclusion, I'd like to ask that if you happen to read a thread that doesn't personally help you in any way, that you just move on to the next one. Your input added nothing constructive, or analytical to the topic, which might be useful in helping someone who is trying to improve their game.

      Good skill to you!
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Originally posted by overson
      1 with JJ to KK if someone makes a raise that covers my small stack do I call or know that they have AA(since one raise is all-in)?
      I'm not sure if you mean preflop or post. You always raise KK preflop, so if someone makes a raise that covers your stack and you have KK, you push it all in. Always.

      With JJ, QQ, AK if there was only one raise ahead of you, you would raise to 3x that person's raise, plus 1 more time per caller.

      I don't know the stakes you're playing at, so I'll give you an example at the lowest limit you should be playing (NL10 .. which is .05/.10 blinds)

      If you are dealt JJ, and one person ahead of you raises to 40 cents, and then gets 2 callers, when it comes to you, you would raise to 5 times their raise. 3x for the initial raise, and 2 more times for the 2 callers. This would make your raise amount be $2.00. (40 cents x 5)

      If your stack happens to be less than $2, then you would push it all in. Even if your stack is $2.45, you would push it all in, since the $2 you would need to raise is more than half your remaining stack of $2.45. If you happen to have more than 2.50 at this level, it's more than 25 big blinds, and you should have left the table before you were dealt this hand.

      So if there was only one raise before you, and that raise covers your small stack, then yes, you would push all in with JJ, QQ, or AK.

      Originally posted by overson
      2 when or should you always go all-in or call a bet with pot odds(ie double your stack or 3 players) even with a scary flop and you have nothing. This seems rather complicated.
      After the flop, if you're in the pot, you have likely raised beforehand (unless you got to see the flop for free). How you act depends on the situation. Assume you have raised before the flop (to keep the discussion consistant, let's say you have JJ)

      If you get a scary flop, (say A K 4, two overcards to your jacks) and it's only you and one other person, if you're the first to enter the pot, you bet 2/3 of the pot. This could mean you're the first to act, or it could mean that your opponent was the first to act, but he just checked.

      If 2/3 of the pot happens to be more than half of what you have left, you would push all in right here.

      If your opponent acted before you and made a bet, you have to consider your jacks are no good, and fold this hand. These jacks are a 'trash hand' now, with those two overcards on the board, and someone betting into you on the flop.

      Now, if, on the flop, the pot is already more than double what you have left in your little stack, then you push it all in.

      I just noticed they've redone the SSS basic articles since the last time I went through them. There's a good example here of exactly this, with a video demo.

      click here - http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/824/6/ and watch the demo for "A pair of kings, but the flop reveals an ace"

      This is a great example of a good preflop hand, which has turned into a trash hand on the flop, due to the Ace on the flop, and an opponent who acts before you, and bets into you. Now your Kings are no good, but, due to the amount of money already in the pot before the betting round started, and due the small amount you have left, you have to push all in here.

      Great work on redoing those SSS articles guys!

      The old articles used to have a section on "How to play after a freeplay in the Big Blind" - it seems the new ones have kind of glossed over that. I wonder if this was intentional, since it's not exactly mentioned anywhere in the new bronze articles.

      In any event, I hope I was able to answer your questions clearly.

      Good Skill to you!
    • RMB
      RMB
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2008 Posts: 599
      couldnt read it all sorry. Just wanted to say that if everyone played poker in a perfect way it would be way easier, why? ofcourse obvious read and other crap.

      SSS might not work for some because their opponent knows jack shit about poker thats why.

      SSS is based on math and logic.

      PuH!
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Originally posted by RMB
      couldnt read, sorry. Just wanted to say that if everyone played poker in a perfect way it would be way easier, why? ofcourse obvious read and other crap.
      If everyone played perfect poker, no one could win over the long term. It woudn't be easier, it wouldn't even be worth playing.

      Originally posted by RMB
      SSS might not work for some because their opponent knows jack shit about poker thats why.
      SSS doesn't require your opponents to know anything about poker, and in fact, works best when you're playing against poor players.

      Originally posted by RMB
      SSS is based on math and logic.

      PuH!
      Well, at least you're half right.
    • RMB
      RMB
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2008 Posts: 599
      SSS doesn't require your opponents to know anything about poker, and in fact, works best when you're playing against poor players.


      Exactly, but for beginners they dont get it when they get beat by way worse hands. thats why people complain that SSS doesn't work

      AND they only look at their bad beats. which adds up.

      I have the feeling you know what i mean.
    • Velak
      Velak
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 542
      Originally posted by RMB
      Exactly, but for beginners they dont get it when they get beat by way worse hands. thats why people complain that SSS doesn't work

      AND they only look at their bad beats. which adds up.

      I think it's also part of human nature to always tend to remember the bad things.

      The news never reports on the good things going on in people's lives.

      No one ever calls up tech support to tell them everything is running fine.

      People tend to be most vocal when things are going against them. They often don't remember (and often don't even realize) the hands that they just sucked out on, with a 2 outter.
    • RMB
      RMB
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.03.2008 Posts: 599
      Originally posted by Velak
      Originally posted by RMB
      Exactly, but for beginners they dont get it when they get beat by way worse hands. thats why people complain that SSS doesn't work

      AND they only look at their bad beats. which adds up.

      I think it's also part of human nature to always tend to remember the bad things.

      The news never reports on the good things going on in people's lives.

      No one ever calls up tech support to tell them everything is running fine.

      People tend to be most vocal when things are going against them. They often don't remember (and often don't even realize) the hands that they just sucked out on, with a 2 outter.
      Yes, I couldn't have said it any better.

      Human nature is a funny thing, thats why psychology can be amusing.
    • overson
      overson
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.04.2008 Posts: 195
      Thanks Velak you explained the straight forward sss very well, but I should have given examples, so here are some now. I do know what to do according to sss, but it seems too risky, maybe an explanation of the math or of variation to different opponents who always call my cbet bluffs with almost nothing but i have them beat. Yes I am playing NL10.

      so about my question 2: If I have JcJd and the flop is 4h 9h Th, I have overpair so I bet 2/3 pot according to sss, but should I really fold in this case since anyone could flop the nuts or draw with a single card? Then if the turn is 3h I still have over pair but anyone with a single h card beats me, according to sss I push all in then right, but does the math work in this case?

      Now in the sss articles it says that if the pot is twice your stack you push all-in. If the opponents showed strength and the board is something like As Ks Kc you are probably beat so do you still push like the articles say?
    • CimkoPro
      CimkoPro
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2008 Posts: 159
      Can any1 tell me should i fold my JJ or QQ or AK if im first one to raise preflop and get reraised should i fold my hand or go all in or just call.
    • slikec
      slikec
      Global
      Joined: 04.02.2008 Posts: 1,155
      Originally posted by CimkoPro
      Can any1 tell me should i fold my JJ or QQ or AK if im first one to raise preflop and get reraised should i fold my hand or go all in or just call.
      Call is not an option! Because when you call you are already pot comitted so or you fold or you go all in immediatelly.

      I can not give you(as i think any of us) clear answer that you should fold or call.

      All i can say is it depends on villian who raised you. If he is extremly TAG fold is probably best option but otherwise you push. At least i fold JJ,QQ or Ak only 1/5 lets say.