[NL2-NL10] NL100 ATo

    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $18,50
      UTG+1:
      $98,85
      MP2:
      $64,50
      MP3:
      $63,80
      CO:
      $62,95

      0,5/1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.58 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BB with T:diamond: , A:club:
      UTG+1 calls $1,00, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1,00, MP3 calls $1,00, CO calls $1,00, 2 folds, Hero checks.

      Flop: ($5,50) J:club: , A:spade: , K:club: (5 players)
      Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3,00, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $3,00, CO calls $3,00, Hero calls $3,00.

      Turn: ($17,50) Q:club: (4 players)
      Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets $3,00, CO calls $3,00, Hero raises to $14,50 (All-In), 2 folds, CO calls $11,50.

      River: ($49,50) 2:spade:


      Final Pot: $49,50

      First of all I wanted to push preflop. Is that allowed/can I do that and is it a good idea here?

      After that a dangerous flop where I decide to check since I didn't really trust my kicker. Quite some people in the pot here, so I wasn't sure which outs I had and which outs I didn't have. I also wasn't sure if I was maybe holding the best hand here.
      I get 5:1 odds to call the bet, what appeared to be a good idea to me. The question is, can I call? And do I actually have any outs left here?

      On the turn I hit my straight and have a (royal) flush draw. I also checked here OOP, since the rest was aggressive enough. After the bet it's an easy push.

      I posted this one couple days ago on the Dutch forum, I just letterly translated it to put it here. Quite alot of different opinions about this one, so I'm really curious what people here think about the hand!!
  • 18 replies
    • xxxdannyxxx
      xxxdannyxxx
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 1,033
      i would have raised on the flop because you have top pair plus gutshot draw.i think you have the best kicker because i would immagine that if someone had AJ+ they would have raised preflop.they might even put you on a flush draw or a straight,being in bb you could have QT
    • bah22
      bah22
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 28.01.2008 Posts: 4,207
      I would play it the same way as you did. It doesn't make sense to raise on the flop with some many people in the pot. Just call and see what happens...the pot odds are way too good...no way of folding I think. On turn everything is easy...nice c/r to bring more money in the pot. NH
    • nttflox
      nttflox
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2007 Posts: 673
      I think a push preflop it's quite marginal, but judging from your opponents stats it looks they play a lot of weaker hands. I for one would have pushed.
      Postflop I would c/r the flop. I don't see many hands that have you beat which your opponents wouldn't raise preflop, plus you'll get action from flushdraws, weaker aces, or weaker pairs with gutshot draws.
    • xxxdannyxxx
      xxxdannyxxx
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 1,033
      i think that if i check and then im gonna call a raise from someone i should have raised instead of checking,because on this board you have top pair and the gutshot so if someone raises to try and steal the pot you cant fold.raising on the flop you dont let the opponent get a free card to draw the nuts(a tris or a flush).
      what did they say on the dutch forum?
    • ysessa
      ysessa
      Basic
      Joined: 11.07.2008 Posts: 1,331
      Hi DeKuip,

      as you play nl100 I will answer with a little bit advanced sss, you should push preflop so much dead money and against the most pockets you have a flip, better Aces mostly raise so the only thing that worries you is the utg limper.
      But you get the Deadmoney very often directly.

      On the Flop you must definitely push when you think you are ahead, you have to protect against gut shots and 2 card fdraws. You should get your money in as favourite, so check raise would be really nice. When you are behind you have outs ;-)
    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      Originally posted by xxxdannyxxx
      what did they say on the dutch forum?
      They've basically mentioned anything here.

      Preflop:
      - Fold
      - Push

      Postflop:
      - Check/fold
      - Check/call
      - Check/raise
      - Bet/shove

      We have 2 judges on the Dutch forum, one of them said Check/Call, other one said Bet/shove.

      So opinions were really divided about this hand.

      About the preflop push, I also thought it's possible, but I try to get rid of some variance, so I decided to check.
      On the flop, I think many lines are possible here. But it's so incredibly hard to determine what range your opponent might have.

      In the end I'm really curious what xylere and/or xarry think about this one.
      And I still don't know how many outs I should discount here, what kind of hand they can have etc.

      And in the end, there must be a line that suits best in this situation. Because I've heard above lines from NL50 SSS-players and higher...

      PS: Sorry about the bump, I've been away for 2 weeks and didn't have time to properly respond to this one.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      I haven't read other replies, before i posted this one.

      against those opponents I would def. consider pushing preflop. And i think i will... With a lower stack decision gets easy

      I guess 40 hands (on UTG) is quite enough to figure out his range is pretty wide there...

      On the flop I would assume UTG will be betting fairly often
      I am too lazy to calculate his "betting" combos, so i will leave this job to anyone who will doubt it :P But intuitively i would go for c/rai. You will get the most out of the draws and mediocre/good combos.

      And imo, betting (first in) here sucks in general, since ranges will be way tighter then in case of you checking.
    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      So you're basically saying that I'm in front and shouldn't try to create FE here?
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Now I've read ysessa's reply :)

      and yeah, preflop push is good. you need some experience to play those spots.
      but in general you want to pay attention to 2 main points:

      1) your stack size
      lower stack -> lighter push)

      2) Info on the first limper.
      the first limper is most important one, because others limp lighter due to the pot odds.

      and the flop stays the same)

      check/fold is a clear crime))
      check/call is also bad, but not as bad as check/fold :D
      bet/shove i mentioned in my previous post

      and c/rai is my choice)
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Originally posted by DeKuip
      So you're basically saying that I'm in front and shouldn't try to create FE here?
      FE by betting first in? You will never make a better hand fold here, no matter what you do.
      The question is how we extract most value out of worse hands)
    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      So by check/raising you're saying that I'm likely to be in front, or that I just want to make the pot big because I have enough draws here?

      Because I'm trying to find the logic in this hand :)
    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      Originally posted by xylere
      Originally posted by DeKuip
      So you're basically saying that I'm in front and shouldn't try to create FE here?
      FE by betting first in? You will never make a better hand fold here, no matter what you do.
      The question is how we extract most value out of worse hands)
      Just wanted to edit that post, but I saw your 2nd reply, so was too late. :D
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Of course I assume you are ahead)

      The only hands that beat us are KJ&QT = 21 possible combos
      while the number of combos that don't will be 100+ at least, i guess

      when i say combos here, i don't mean combo draws, but the combination of hands available in the deck
    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      So you don't think that people hold AJ/AQ here (they won't have AK, that's for sure I think) or some other kind of monsterdraw that is ahead?
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      the other thing

      think about their playable ranges
      its either pure draws, AX (where x < T)
      or ton of possible combo draws, like Kx or Jx + gutshots, backdoors in various combinations

      and the best way to play against those ranges is to c/r
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Originally posted by DeKuip
      So you don't think that people hold AJ/AQ here (they won't have AK, that's for sure I think) or some other kind of monsterdraw that is ahead?
      How often they will limp AJ/AQ?

      there are only 6 AJ combos and 8 AQ anyway... if it happens one in a while let it be so, you still have some equity...
    • DeKuip
      DeKuip
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 10,966
      Originally posted by xylere
      the other thing

      think about their playable ranges
      its either pure draws, AX (where x < T)
      or ton of possible combo draws, like Kx or Jx + gutshots, backdoors in various combinations

      and the best way to play against those ranges is to c/r
      That's a clear explanation :)
      Thanks a lot!
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      You are welcome)

      I will leave it unjudged, in case other judges would like to add something.