Discussion Thread: SNG Preflop Play

  • 31 replies
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      This is in reply to the test hand posted in the 'News' section calling for suggested lines. Here are the factors which I have glopped over.

      1. K9o is actually pretty raggy and there are two players left to act.

      2. Hero has no chips committed.

      3. Hero's stack is limited in relation to the blinds. That is relevant in two major ways. First, the blinds will start eating the stack soon, especially on a shorthanded table. Second, if you commit ANY chips to playing this hand, you must commit them all, else there is no point in participating - this is a tournament decision.

      4. The rubric says that the raiser is loose, but folds a lot to re-raises.

      5. In the context of the choices offered on the newspage, Hero must shove.

      6. Folding is actually worth consideration. K9o is not a pair, and it is only just a straight draw. It is only a random selection from the upper half of the deck. The temptation to attack stems purely from knowledge of the raiser's habits.
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      From those options mentioned the b option is best. Though folding should still be default play, but if making a move then small 3bet is best with idea of calling SB shove.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Originally posted by ghaleon
      From those options mentioned the b option is best. Though folding should still be default play, but if making a move then small 3bet is best with idea of calling SB shove.
      Explain, coach. What's your thinking?
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      Originally posted by Glopslart
      Originally posted by ghaleon
      From those options mentioned the b option is best. Though folding should still be default play, but if making a move then small 3bet is best with idea of calling SB shove.
      Explain, coach. What's your thinking?
      Hero is 28bb deep with CO and BB. K9o is way too weak hand to play for stacks versus either of them. So if we 3bet and face 4bet shove from them we have to fold. When SB shove versus our 3bet and other villains fold we have too good pot odds to fold. So we are pot committed versus him.

      Shoving is not option because we would be risking 28bb to win 4bb so risk:reward ratio would be too bad. In practice I would not shove any hand this deep, but would have flat, 3bet-fold and 3bet-call ranges.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Coach, TY, that was helpful.

      I personally would be worried about the speed with which the blinds come by on a 5-handed table, but I guess that's part of the difference between people like me and the pros.
    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Sometimes you have to deviate from your standard play and bust out some creative moves - our latest Pokerschool 2.0 lesson will show you the application of four SnG concepts. You can learn all about "trapping", "stop and go", "squeezing" and "bet size manipulation".

      We hope that you will like the lesson and have a lot of fun while learning!



      What play would you make in this spot?
    • parikal
      parikal
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2011 Posts: 23
      i reraise too 1000 !
      after flop dark bet 1/2 pot.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Boomer2k10:

      Where do we find the Pokerschool 2.0 lessons?
    • 7h3r1pp4
      7h3r1pp4
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2008 Posts: 816
      For example in the topic of this thread and at the buttom of this news there is an overview too:

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/content/New-SNG-lesson:-unconventional-plays_76256/

      Pokerschool 2.0 lessons get released one by one as I know not all at once.
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      Just when I thought I knew absolutely everything about SNGs [ :D ], I find we are required to learn even more!

      I have been dipping into the new series of lessons. It appears to me that, at numerous points, we are being moved away from the traditional doctrines taught 5 years back or so on PS. Am I correct? Should we take these items as just alternative ideas, or as replacements for the traditional doctrines?

      I note also that, at various points, there are attempts to distinguish between the various types of SNG. I respectfully suggest that these attempts do not go far enough. The gradations between 6-man, 9 & 10 man, multiplayer and, finally, 180-man tournaments are [IMHO] vast. Those differences need to be more clearly defined with clearer teachings on the relevant adjustments.

      I suggest the community would appreciate it if these fascinating articles were to be treated, not as completed items, but rather as "work-in-progress".

      How about developing a complete, internally coherent, strategy book for playing all types of SNGs? The 'book' could have sections restricted to silver, gold, etc.

      And I do mean a 'book' rather than a series of articles. PS could readily develop a single PDF e-book, [with silver and gold chapters, etc.] and put up a link to it.

      What does everybody think?
    • gadget51
      gadget51
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Hi Glopslart,

      May I suggest you post your ideas in the Feedback and Suggestions Forum?

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/board.php?boardid=1364

      I am sure they will be very pleased to read them.


      Regards and have fun,

      Mal.
    • gaaish
      gaaish
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2010 Posts: 1,258
      Glopslart - click :) .
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      I am struggling with a concept in the "Entering an Opened Pot lesson".

      It has you create a Re-push Range (typically lower pairs and lower suited Aces) and a 3-Bet/ Fold Range (typically lower offsuited Aces).

      It gives an example chart showing the 4 ranges that you would play in an opened pot (3-Bet/Call, Flat-call, Re-Push, and 3-Bet/Fold)... and suggests that the chart represents a scenario where you are the Button with 25 BB effective.

      My confusion is centered around the Re-Push range. If you have 25 BB effective - how would it be good to Push here? Wouldn't a 3-Bet/Fold (or possibly a flat-call) be more sensible? I understand that you would have quite a bit of fold equity and could pick up about 4 BB's (estimated), but with that many chips is it worth risking your tournament life? (I play STT's.)
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi Ramble!

      I assume u mean spots that we are sitting in the blinds and we have the button opening with all effective stack sizes being around 25bb. Flat will be ok with some hands, but flatting low pairs and low aces(suited or not) will usually show big loss of chips/equity ITLR. Those hands play awful postflop. Low pairs are great re-shoving hands as they have decent equity vs a lot of the calling range(f.e. 22 is a small favorite over AK/AQ/AJ or other Ax hands). Suited Ax have blocking value(meaning our opponent is going to have less Ax in his range, which reduces his calling frequency) and the suitedness makes it just about right because of the added equity of making the nut flush. Low offsuited Ax are usually quite bad. They are good for the blocking effect, but that's about it. I rather push 89s as it has much better expectation than A2o f.e. vs most opponents.

      Now to the flatting part. If villain is a loose fish, who would r/c a wide range including many Ax, low pairs hands, then we need to cut off the semi-bluffing hands of our re-shoving range, but widen up the value pushing range. F.e. A7s, 66 will be a value push. Hands like QJs, 9Ts are better off flatted than pushed. You don't want to be flipping QJs vs A4o for 25bb, but you have great expectation postflop vs these type of hands. You can also consider 3bet/folding and 3bet shipping vs the right opponents.

      Hope I understood your concerns correctly and you will find this helpful.
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Thanks Kurrkabin and anyone else who would like to respond - A bit of follow-up if you don't mind as I'm not sure I understand yet... (I'm slow like molasses, on a cold winter's day, flowing uphill... :) )

      My understanding from the example is that CO made the initial raise and I am re-Pushing 25 BB effective from the Button with 99-22, A8s-A2s, AJo-ATo, KQo-KJo.

      So general questions (not specific to the example) are:
      1. Do you include a Re-Shove range from every position or just from the Blinds? (If so, I understand that the range will be different from each position.)

      2. What range of effective stack sizes do you Re-Push with? For instance, I am assuming that when your stack is small (14BB or less) that you are probably beginning to drop this strategy somewhat and switch to Push-Fold mode. But when your stack is quite large (say 30BB or more) are you really re-shoving that deep? I am thinking that there must be some tipping point where it is better to hand-select then it is to rely on fold equity? (I hope you get my thinking there...).

        I guess when I read the article I was thinking it would be in the 14BB - 20BB range, so when I saw the example say 25BB, I was surprised and am now wondering how deep would you employ this strategy.

      3. In the example, it includes all pairs between 99 and 22 in the Re-pushing range. Is there any benefit (or drawback) in splitting this so that 99-55 would be in the RePush range while 44-22 would be in a 3-Bet/Fold range?


      I agree with all of your comments regarding flat-calling. I also agree with adjusting your ranges based on your opponent (i.e. re-shove hand-selection).

      Questions 1 & 2 are most important to me, Question 3 is just a curiosity...

      Thanks again Kurrkabin and anyone else who would like to pitch in.
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi again, sry for the little delay!

      -I want to note first that re-shoving 25bb eff. BTN vs CO with the range u've given is way, way too loose. I can't give you an exact range unless we speak with numbers-pay out, people left, stack set up, but in general, it's gonna be way too loose. With position, you can just flat with the part of your range that plays well IP postflop, but would be otherwise minus EV on a shove. You can also 3bet/fold with the small pairs and some small Axs.

      1-I have a re-shove range from every position with 20bb or less, but ranges will change drastically

      2. Usually around 20-22bb effective, but there is so much more to do. General strategies are not optimal. That's the short answer. I give u an example. U have a loose fish on the BTN, who will open 50% of hands, but also call very loose on a shove. Any Ax, any pair, most broadway. Then shoving a hand like TJs for 20bb becomes suicidal. However, flatting would be great. Your hand plays well postflop vs his range and it's way too strong to fold. Pushing 44+ however will be really good usually(say risk aversion is small) because of his extended raise/call range. You can flat, 3bet/fold, 3bet/call even down to like 16-17bb. Your decision comes to whatever you think it's most profitable. If you f.e. think that villain raises a very wide range, aggro postflop but will call on a shove with a very tigth range, then again re-shoving AA/KK/QQ will be bad. Best would be to flat and exploit his tendencies.

      3. It comes again on what's most profitable. It is reasonable to 3bet/fold 22-33 25bb f.e. if you think villain will fold a lot, but only push the power hands in his range. You can also add more bluffs to it, then re-adjust if needed and so on. If villain is an aggro reg who will be 4bet light, then 3betting non all in with 44-55 25bb for value will become more profitable than shoving, because villain is not gonna call as loose on a shove, then what he would 4bet on a 3bet. Espeially vs regs, meta and game flow are very importantn.
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,421
      Thanks again Kurrkabin.

      I really like that the new strategies are not so prescriptive that they say "with this hand, in this position, do this", but at the same time, I find them just a bit too general. They seem to introduce a concept without really giving enough of a foundation for a player to figure out how to adjust based on position, stack sizes, vs opponent types, etc... (not in all cases, but in some).

      As for Re-pushing - I just don't get it. I am still having a hard time seeing the benefit of re-shoving anything more than say 18-20 BBeff except in very specific spots against very specific opponents - too few for me to include in any sort of general 'opened-pot' range. All of those hands seem to make more sense to me as part of a flat-call or 3-bet/fold range - in way more situations.

      I think for me the Re-shove is going to just be an 'unconventional play' that I keep in my back-pocket for those rare spots...
    • Hrico
      Hrico
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.10.2011 Posts: 31
      re- raise to 1200 :D
    • STEPVN
      STEPVN
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2014 Posts: 2
      Thanks guys !!
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