status related changes to our hand evaluation forums

    • SvenBe
      SvenBe
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,116
      Dear users,
      we want to give you an overview of our new environment for hand sharing. It consists of

      open hand discussions
      - Free and unlimited sharing of hands with everyone
      - the ideal place to exchange opinions with all pokerstrategists

      premium hand evaluations
      - The place to get a guaranteed personalized evaluation by one of our Poker experts
      - Premium hand evaluations will be subject to these monthly limitations:
      Silver status: 5 hand evaluations per month
      Gold status: 20 hand evaluations per month
      Platinum status: 50 hand evaluations per month
      Diamond/ Black Member status: no personal limit

      These changes allow our new system to be sustainable and let us further provide excellent service in all premium evaluations. On top of that, the majority of active members will not be affected. We believe these changes will even increase the quality of the hands posted and improve the quality of discussions.
      For those of you who want to post more hands than your current status allows, you can simply
      • Play on one of our partner rooms to increase your status
      Buy a higher status
      • Post your hands in our open discussion boards

      The changes will be taking place tomorrow, Tuesday 4th.
  • 30 replies
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      :f_thumbsup:

      Some limitation of the number of posted hands was needed. Hand judges have been getting too much workload lately but no good excuse for not going through all those hands, most of which could be solved by thorough home analysis. Now they can stand up for themselves.
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      Do you guys offer refunds if you make changes to your level statuses?. I'm pretty keen on the hand evaluations as I feel that they are an invaluable tool for my development and i'm interested in perhaps upgrading to diamond but I don't want to say, pay 12 months for example and risk losing out part way through
    • SvenBe
      SvenBe
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,116
      Hi legand73,
      the changes we announced above are made in a way that they make it sustainable for us, thus we do not intend doing further changes to the premium service of hand evaluations.
      Does that answer the question? So if you bought the status now, there will be no changes if you want to post hands.
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      Hey Sven

      Yep that does answer it thanks :)
    • Schris7
      Schris7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2007 Posts: 730
      well i bought silver status just to be able to post to evaluation forum and u limited me to 5h per month ?... not good
    • vuciitis
      vuciitis
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2011 Posts: 1,314
      this is pretty bad marketing decision you ppl made, you will not increase the amount ppl spend on buying account upgrades and grinding more, just the opposite, u will loose ppl who did the minimum to be able to post. because really - those ammounts are set by some one who does not have the greatest idea how this poker thing works really... 5-10 hands a month is just ridiculous!
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      I think this is perfectly reasonable, well, at least it's perfectly understandable. The price tag for an evaluation is now, effectively, $1-$2 a piece (look at what it costs to buy status).

      How many evaluations per hour can a hand judge make (with sustained quality)? Probably no more than 10-12 including writing replies, perhaps including a subsequent discussion. This makes no big $/h for the judge (like if he got the whole fee - muhaha).

      [I'm curious, how long does it on average to evaluate a hand? I know that Boomer over at FL could spend a week if he wants to (and nobody forcefully stops him) on a hand. But on average ...]

      This is a good thing to do because I'd hate to see PokerStrategy's economy go sour.

      But...

      There's a thing PS could do to "compensate". Open up, or lower the status requirements for reading more forums. This play has slightly -EV, but I think few members are itching to grind more/pay solely to be able to read the forums anyway. Hence the "slightly" in the -EV. It would be a gesture many would appreciate.

      Another option is to lower the requirements for some reading material. (In the case of FL Hold'em this material is anyway so dated that it is best to not read it at all.) The rationale is the same here. People aren't itching to grind/pay to be able to read more, but many would appreciate it if they could.

      On the other hand, lowering requirements for videos is ---EV. People want to be entertained more than to be learned stuff :)
    • Schris7
      Schris7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.01.2007 Posts: 730
      i dont think the problem was the $/h the judges were making. especially at micro limits judge doesnt spend more than 2 mins to evaluate the hand. as i see it the problem was that they had so many hands that ps wasnt making enough profit/status deal cause they had to pay more $ to the judges
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Hi all,

      I'd like to clear up a few things regarding these changes we made.

      We have a status system in place. Those with a higher status are therefore rightfully entitled to more content and more privileges. This already applied to all articles, videos and coachings, so why should it not apply to hand evaluations?

      As it was, everybody was free to post as much as possible. This essentially meant that Bronze users, who don't earn us any money, were able to use our services just as much as Diamond members. This of course doesn't really make sense and also isn't really fair towards members with a higher status.

      Essentially, those with a higher status should be rewarded as such. That's what we're trying to work towards with these changes. Before this, the reward we gave users who didn't earn the company any money, was very large. Taking into account that Diamond members could use the hand evaluation forums just as much (just higher limits) and how much this costs in general, that's a bit of a skewed distribution of the services we offer.

      Although I can understand it's frustrating that Bronze members can't post hands for evaluation at all, and Silver members can only post 5 hands per month, the goal is to make the whole system more fair and just in general. We're trying to work with a system that gives a higher reward to having a higher status, and that's what this change allows us to do.

      And for all Bronze members and members who have exceeded their monthly posting limits, there is of course always the option of posting your hands in the open hand discussion forums for your game of choice.

      Hopefully this has answered some of your questions and concerns. Just let us know if anything is unclear or if you have any further questions.

      Kind regards,
      Tino
    • PerusJamppa
      PerusJamppa
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,714
      I think it's fair that bronze members have more limitations than silver members and so on. More you pay, more you'll get and that's fine.

      However, in this model there are some flaws. For example, 5 hands/month for silver members is nothing but a joke. When you're starting playing poker you have much more question about hands. If you're playing like PLO2/NLHE2 there's no way that one could achieve a gold status. Sure they can post their hands to the "open forum" but there's no guarantee that any official judge or coach will reply. Of course there are many great common members whose opinions are just as good, but still..

      This kind of actions are once again huge steps for Pokerstrategy [I]away[/i] from being a poker school and more towards just a one of the any other affiliate sites.

      If you need to do some restrictions based on status, do it with adding levels of stake. That way the new players (with at least silver status) can still post their NL2/NL4 hands without limitations and maximize their learning curve. And on the other hand, players with higher status can still post their hands to the section of their limits without restrictions.
    • esowes
      esowes
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2012 Posts: 65
      These are PERFECTLY reasonable terms.
    • miropro
      miropro
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.08.2008 Posts: 134
      Originally posted by PerusJamppa
      If you're playing like PLO2/NLHE2 there's no way that one could achieve a gold status.
      I play NL2 and I achieved gold status so there is a way.

      Anyway, at least in NLHE nano stakes, answers to most of common questions are found in strategy section. It is mostly about bet sizing and should I call or not.

      Strategy section - articles about types of opponents, pot odds, bet sizing, bet types and you will be fine. These are all lessons before gold status so no worries.

      Better investment for a beginner (and for pokerstrategy) is buying decent tracking software than upgrading status. Status should be earned.

      Have a nice day :f_cool:
    • vuciitis
      vuciitis
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2011 Posts: 1,314
      [quote]Originally posted by PerusJamppa
      I think it's fair that bronze members have more limitations than silver members and so on. More you pay, more you'll get and that's fine.

      However, in this model there are some flaws. For example, 5 hands/month for silver members is nothing but a joke. When you're starting playing poker you have much more question about hands. If you're playing like PLO2/NLHE2 there's no way that one could achieve a gold status. Sure they can post their hands to the "open forum" but there's no guarantee that any official judge or coach will reply. Of course there are many great common members whose opinions are just as good, but still..

      This kind of actions are once again huge steps for Pokerstrategy [I]away[/i] from being a poker school and more towards just a one of the any other affiliate sites.

      If you need to do some restrictions based on status, do it with adding levels of stake. That way the new players (with at least silver status) can still post their NL2/NL4 hands without limitations and maximize their learning curve. And on the other hand, players with higher status can still post their hands to the section of their limits without restrictions.[/quote]this x10!!!!

      i understand that its just too much if i post 5-10 hands every day being bronze or silver, but srsly, 5 hands a month is just not worth my time playing on different site were im linked to pokerstrategy just to get a level... you should STRONGLY consider increasing the amount of hands ppl can post for each level. id be fine to keep my level up if i could post at least 2 hands a day and that seems resonbale to me... bronze - 1 hand per day / silver -2 / gold - 3 etc...
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      Seriously, what do you think a hand evaluation costs?

      @PoketStrategy, how much does, in fact, a hand evaluation cost?

      A dollar or two a piece sounds like a reasonable price tag. You don't even "pay" it directly, you get it as sort of an extra rakeback. You are also free to read thousands of other peoples evaluated hands.

      Still think it is a good idea to "compensate" (mostly bronze and silver members) by letting more status levels read more in the evaluation and strategy forums. Those who posted many hands have lost a lot of equity. Letting them read more costs little (I think), and they'll still have incentive to grind more in order to be able to post more.

      Edit: This whole change is little about fairness towards diamond members (whatever you say), and very much about cost. But this is not a bad thing.
    • Rufus433
      Rufus433
      Platinum
      Joined: 20.08.2010 Posts: 457
      Just say it out laud - We want your money and that's it.

      No other explanation needed, this is so unbalanced as you basically are saying if you want our help pay 199$ per month (99$ if you do it in one payment), but to be honest for forum purposes there a lot of other sites that will offer the same thing for 1/3 of this price or better, but than just get personal coach as it will be cheaper and more effective.

      If you are playing micro or low stakes you def don't need diamond materials as it is just way too high level stuff for you.

      As i see it, you are forcing low stakes guys to move to different sites to study and spend money.
    • PerusJamppa
      PerusJamppa
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 2,714
      Originally posted by miropro
      Originally posted by PerusJamppa
      If you're playing like PLO2/NLHE2 there's no way that one could achieve a gold status.
      I play NL2 and I achieved gold status so there is a way.
      Ok, i stand corrected. :tongue:
      However, there's a huge difference between you and new player in the game who is very likely 1-2 tabling and probably not even "zooming" and those were the guys i was talking about.

      Seriously, what do you think a hand evaluation costs?
      @PoketStrategy, how much does, in fact, a hand evaluation cost?

      A dollar or two a piece sounds like a reasonable price tag. You don't even "pay" it directly, you get it as sort of an extra rakeback. You are also free to read thousands of other peoples evaluated hands.

      Since i don't know how much Pokerstrategy pays to the judges, there's no way to tell.
      Hardest part is to estimate how much time judge uses time on average for one hand.
      Because judges are very good players they don't need that much time to evaluate hands, because they are doing same kind of decisions at the table within seconds. But yeah, maybe some 1-2$/hand sounds reasonable.

      Now i do my best to explain my point of view. :f_grin:

      There are few ways to think this whole system. To earn silver status, you need to pay ~10$ a month to the Pokerstrategy. If we give 1$ price tag for one hand history (and rest 5$ goes to the videos, coaching and stuff) 5 hands/month is exactly what you are entitled to. That is very straightforward thinking and logic behind it is very solid. If you go to the store and buy candies with 10$, you get candies with 10$, not with 15$.

      However in Pokerstrategy there are also a lot of members who are very passive (what comes to the hand posting) and don't use that opportunity. If we go back to the candy store, that would mean that there's people who leave 5-10$ to the cashier and walk away with nothing.

      In this (PS) case, Pokerstrategy can choose what to do with that extra money. One possibility (and exactly what they are going to do with these changes) is just shove the money in the pocket and give people exactly what they pay for. Ok, that's fine. Basically there's nothing wrong with that. This is business not charity.

      But i would at least consider a possibility to (way i see it) invest the money.
      Since there are a lot of members who don't use their privileges, why not let them pay part of the expenses of the beginning players to make them better players so they could eventually give more money (playing higher stakes and pay more rake) for the Pokerstrategy in the long run.

      One other reason why i don't like this new system is that passive members don't lose nothing. Instead all the active members who really want to become better players (and pay eventually more rake ;) ) are the ones who loses the most.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Silver
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 3,853
      Originally posted by PerusJamppa
      Since i don't know how much Pokerstrategy pays to the judges, there's no way to tell.
      Hardest part is to estimate how much time judge uses time on average for one hand.
      Because judges are very good players they don't need that much time to evaluate hands, because they are doing same kind of decisions at the table within seconds. But yeah, maybe some 1-2$/hand sounds reasonable.
      Ask a hand judge in the com tool or Skype, easy game.

      Originally posted by PerusJamppa
      To earn silver status, you need to pay ~10$ a month to the Pokerstrategy.
      Not necessarily. It suffices to play on 9 days a month, earning >=1 SP on each (as per the bonus SP promo) and >=10 SPs total. 10 SPs require $2-4 of rake depending on the room. (Of course it depends on the variation and stakes played, e.g. for Stars' microstakes cash it can be as little as $2 of rake due to the 10x VPP/$ multiplier; for tourneys, it suffices to pay $0.41 in fees on each of nine days, $0.41*9=$3.69 - not so big a difference.) So the Silver offer is still too good, as said above.
    • jawoftheox
      jawoftheox
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.09.2013 Posts: 216
      I think gold status should have 30 a month, so it's one a day and it makes more sense.
    • Hashkan
      Hashkan
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.08.2011 Posts: 315
      Where is this?
      "• open hand discussions
      - Free and unlimited sharing of hands with everyone
      - the ideal place to exchange opinions with all pokerstrategists "

      I cant find this free forum.
    • 1
    • 2