Learning Razz

    • wg123
      wg123
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      Joined: 05.05.2014 Posts: 2,674
      Hi!
      I'm new at Razz and I hope there are some experienced players here who play this variant and can answer my few questions. Thanks in advance :f_drink:

      1) Which statistics are crucial when it comes to HUD? Which statistics can show you a fish (like for example high VPIP in holdem) ?
      2) Tourney, SNGs and cash games. As far as I see the differences are not as big as for example in holdem NL. What are the most important differences between them? Can you combine all options at the beginning of your game? If not, which one would you recommend for a beginner?
      3) SNG HU - what BRM would be recommendable? What do you think about playing it as a beginner? I think luck is a big factor there so I guess variance is big. What's the level of the players on Stars?
      4) Do you play simultaneously Razz and other variants during one session?
      5) How many tables simultaneously do you play?
      6) Which sources do you recommend to study? I'm learning "Razz Poker to win" and watching all silver and below videos in video section. Any other ideas how to improve my game?
      7) Are there any recommendable coaches on PS or anywhere else who teach Razz?

      Cheers :f_drink:
  • 19 replies
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 27,160
      Hello wg123

      I’m playing razz for fun sometimes. So I’m not an expert.

      1. I newer used a Hud, because HM2 not supporting this game. Further I think is more important to paid attention to the hole cards they showing than the stats of the players.

      2. Don’t think there are much different between the format’s (cash, SNG and MTT), but is most likely difficult to play regularly SNG games. They run not that much. Maybe only on micro limits, but even than is it difficult.

      Further is Razz is a totally different game than NLHE. You need to check the hole cards of all your opponents. So you have a good indication of the strength of the hands of your opponents. Also you know how many low cards are dead. So you know also you can’t use them to improve your own hand. That’s the reason is not easy to play more than 1 table at once.

      3. I expect 50-100 buy-inns must be enough, but I just checked PokerStars and on Razz HU-SNG’s is no traffic on the moment. Further I have no clue how the skill level is of the players, because I only play ring game format. I expect you can better try ring games or MTT’s first.

      4. If I play Razz I’m only play 1 table, because reasons of point 2. If I play other formats I only play 1 table 8 game.

      5. Only 1 at the same time.

      6. You learn also a lot by playing the game and posting hands on the forum. Than you get feedback of other players that play Razz.

      7. So far I know there are no Razz coaches on PokerStrategy. Is not a popular format.

      Hopefully this helped a little bit.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      hi wg123,

      i'm experienced in razz mtt and husng, i used to play hu razz exclusively for many months and was winning several hundred dollars weekly. im not an expert but am somewhat qualified to answer.

      1. i never used a hud, see sdk1987's answer.

      2. the differences are huge. in a tourney you should be more conservative to preserve chips, players are often very loose and you will struggle to get into hu pots so i will often play somewhat passively until i have at least 4 good cards with a live draw unless i am in steal position. cash game play you should be pushing your thin edges and trying to push players out (or charge them the maximum) when they catch bricks, even when you have the second best hand because your equity goes up so much in a hu pot compared to 3 handed. for begginer i would recommend cash games simply because they run most of the time on stars whilst there are only a few tourneys a day.

      3. 20 buy ins is enough for hu sng imo. you must understand that hu razz is a whole different animal to the other formats, the key is knowing when you are a favourite, partiularly on 4th and 5th street, and knowing your opponent. luck is not as big of a factor even in super-turbos skill is king. the level of play is generally poor, but there are quite a few very good regs who you should avoid, you will quickly learn who these players are and if you proove yourself a worthy opponent they will avoid you.

      4. i will play razz with other formats but i've been playing mixed games for years, its possible with experience but as a begginer i would say just stick to one game at a time for now.

      5. i think its ok to play 2 tables because in full ring you wont play a lot of hands so you dont need to observe the dead cards all the time, in hu razz you dont need to observe the dead cards at all, i've been known to play 4 tables but i find more than 2 tables is difficult unless its all the same opponent.

      6. if you havnt watched rainman trail's razz videos then you should watch them all. sklansky on razz is a good book, apart from that you can try dc or cr videos if you have the resources, they have some great stuff available.

      7. not that i know of.
    • Anykey444
      Anykey444
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2011 Posts: 424
      I play very little razz, but can't stop answer questions :)

      1. Formally speaking the same as for many other poker games:
      VPIP, PFR, 2bet-3bet, Agression factor and so on. Steal if it is correctly calculated.
      I don't know who is fish for you, if it's a loosing player you could use corresponding stats, if it is say loose passive it's for sure high VPIP and low agression.
      Don't forget that you have three different cards <=8 ~16%, <=9 about 24%
      So if you see somebody playing with 30-40% VPIP he is probably some kind of a fish
    • wg123
      wg123
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      Hi guys,
      thank you for your response. To be honest I didn't expect to get any answer because I knew a few people play Razz. :f_drink:

      dc or cr videos
      what is dc and cr?

      Watching Rainman Trail videos is in progress :) Why doesn't he produce anymore?

      You learn also a lot by playing the game and posting hands on the forum. Than you get feedback of other players that play Razz.
      Can I do it in this section?
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 27,160
      Originally posted by wg123
      You learn also a lot by playing the game and posting hands on the forum. Than you get feedback of other players that play Razz.
      Can I do it in this section?
      That’s right that you can post hands here.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      deuces cracked and cardrunners
    • wg123
      wg123
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      Ok, thanks. Just three more questions. What should be a decent ROI in SNG HU games? Is there any point in playing for playmoney to learn or it won't help me at all? What should be a decent BB/100 for cash games in Razz?
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      if you can win 66% of your games you are doing very very well. i think it has to be at least 55% to break even depending on the rake. not sure exactly how that translates into ROI.

      no i wouldnt play for play money but you can play for 50c on full tilt thats good practice for a begginer, sometimes if you join an already seated opponent they will play pretty well so its even better as cheap practice. you should be looking to sit first though because on average you will be playing much weaker players.

      i dont have any records of cash game win rates but off the top of my head i think 5BB/100 would be quite good.
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      I'd stay away from HU Sit&Go as a beginner, and worry more about my own game than HUD's. It is a highly mathematical game, so study the Razz math first and concentrate on CG.
    • wg123
      wg123
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      Originally posted by YohanN7
      I'd stay away from HU Sit&Go as a beginner, and worry more about my own game than HUD's. It is a highly mathematical game, so study the Razz math first and concentrate on CG.
      That's what I actually did :) I will stick with cash games for some time. I don't play with HUD too. Just use FPDB to keep my graphs.

      Btw. it's terribly tilting poker in my opinion :rage: :rage: :rage:
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
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      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,086
      Tilting is the least you can say. You start with :Ah: :2s: :3s: , fool with :Tc: in the door calls a double bet. You then catch :4c: :4h: :3c: :3d: :spit:

      You have the right attitude (listening to good advice ITT) and will be a winner8-)
    • Sulfrin
      Sulfrin
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      Joined: 28.09.2012 Posts: 6
      Hey guys, i am also looking forward to deveolpoe my razz game. Beside the ressources you all mentionened, are there any sort of books besides sklansky on razz you can recommend?
    • sherriffatman
      sherriffatman
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.04.2009 Posts: 254
      Razz is one of my fave games, though I am no expert

      - there's a program called stud indicator that is handy for multi-tabling, as it displays the discards for ya, for if and when you start playing more than one table at a time - failing that, you could use simple 'chunking' techniques to memorize the discards

      - in mtts, especially low-stakes - expect lots of multi-way pots and little fold equity - and peeps playing any 3 <8 like it's the nuts!? - stick to solid fundamentals and you should have a decent edge there
    • reggie6767
      reggie6767
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      Joined: 01.06.2016 Posts: 3
      Hello all,

      A lot of pokersites do not give the chance to play Razz, too bad!
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 27,160
      That’s right. Maybe it’s a idea to Introduce yourself!
      Then we will know you a little bit better.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • reggie6767
      reggie6767
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      Joined: 01.06.2016 Posts: 3
      i have no idea how to introduce myself, so i put it here.. i am Jet, a woman, 47 springs young and play on Pokerstars and PKR..mostly NL holdem and have played in Las Vegas end of march, won the tournament and had a great time..:D
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
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      That's not bad. How much did you win with that tournament? If you had used the link I had posted and you had made a new thread it would be better. Do you play razz as well?
    • reggie6767
      reggie6767
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      Joined: 01.06.2016 Posts: 3
      Ty, the amount is not important as money floads, but the experience of winning a WSOP tourney was priceless :)
      and yes, i do play Razz and also love Badugi..
    • twiyPRO
      twiyPRO
      Basic
      Joined: 03.07.2016 Posts: 8
      Razz is a great poker game. I really believe in the future of other games, not just Omaha and NL Hold'em. Don't let me wrong, I like these games but poker is something much bigger.

      Answering the questions in a dinamic text:

      I think you should keep reading and watching any material involving Razz, but never compare NLHE with Razz 'cause they are absolutely different. It's not good for your game at all, even when we are talking about other 'flop games', like Omaha, you have to play with other approach.

      The mindset, psychologic battles and tournament life (in case of tournaments) are something in common in the games, but you have to play outside the Hold'em box to be good at other types of poker.