Bring back the Hand Judging Service!

    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      The Hand Judging Service was one of the most useful methods to improve yourself, and it was possible mostly because you knew that when you posted a hand, a winning coach would answer you, and not random people that could know more or less than you, be a winner or a loser, and who knows from what limit perspective they write.
      Not to mention you had a guaranteed answer no matter how dull the hand could be, it would never get lost in the endless sea of hand evaluations.

      In my opinion, it's what made Pokerstrategy so unique, and personally, it has been the method that helped me most, even if I didn't take much advantage of it because of the recent limitations you put on, which sucked by the way.

      Taking it down because it's not popular anymore (especially after the limitations you put) is a poor excuse of a reason and I'm sure many of us are enraged by the bad news.

      Please reconsider your decision, as it is possibly the worst one you ever took, I don't know from a marketing perspective, but from the perspective of helping your community, which is what made you so well known and successful.

      If anybody else feels the same way, please write here your reasons, and hopefully you'll be able to explain it in a better way than I did.

      I always loved your work Pokerstrategy, but this is a hit in the guts to what you've done so far.
      Quality over quantity, not the other way around.
  • 80 replies
    • YohanN7
      YohanN7
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2009 Posts: 4,711
      I used to post replies to every hand that was posted in the FL forum (and lately a little in the NL micro forum). My goal every thread was to post basically the same reply, and for the same reasons, as the professional would hopefully post later. I became pretty damned good at it:s_cool: If I could play that way at the tables, ..., oh boy, ..., no more micros grinding.

      That was also a way to sharpen skills. Now even that reason to post is gone too. I'll probably not be posting much from now on. I'll make exceptions for guys I know well (to the extent you can know them in a forum), and I hope they do the same for me.

      Oh, b t w, the replacement reward (for posting tonnes) is a joke. The freerolls at Stars (or anywhere) have better EV. T b h, I wouldn't do it even if there were ten diamond statuses every month for grabs. Not worth the effort, time is money.
    • Post removed

    • TJtheTJ
      TJtheTJ
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,582
      Hey guys,

      I can certainly understand your disappointment. I know the hand evaluations were invaluable to some of you.

      As mentioned in the news article, the hand evaluations are used by a relatively very small number of users. And especially among new users these numbers are extremely low - they generally seem to have a hard time getting used to hand evaluations, and since videos, coachings and articles are directly available and/or easier to use in general, they opt to use those instead.

      For this reason, it was decided to make this change. Although this is very unfortunate for all of you who did make great use of the professional hand evaluations, we hope to make these hand discussions more accessible this way. This concept of "highlight hands" is generally more accessible. Previously, hands in our hand evaluation boards gained only a few views. With this new concept, we aim to have a look at general concepts, leaks and exploits which is directly accessible to everyone.

      The professional hand evaluations were basically aimed at individual users. This concept is aimed at all players with the idea that everybody can more easily benefit from them. As stated in the news, there will also be hand evaluation coachings, where you could still have your hands evaluated by a coach. The idea here again is to make it more accessible to a larger group of people.

      Hopefully you will still be able to get a lot out of our new offer, despite the advantages our professional hand evaluations offered.

      Thanks for your understanding.

      Regards,
      Tino
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by TinoLaan
      Hey guys,

      I can certainly understand your disappointment. I know the hand evaluations were invaluable to some of you.

      As mentioned in the news article, the hand evaluations are used by a relatively very small number of users. And especially among new users these numbers are extremely low - they generally seem to have a hard time getting used to hand evaluations, and since videos, coachings and articles are directly available and/or easier to use in general, they opt to use those instead.

      For this reason, it was decided to make this change. Although this is very unfortunate for all of you who did make great use of the professional hand evaluations, we hope to make these hand discussions more accessible this way. This concept of "highlight hands" is generally more accessible. Previously, hands in our hand evaluation boards gained only a few views. With this new concept, we aim to have a look at general concepts, leaks and exploits which is directly accessible to everyone.

      The professional hand evaluations were basically aimed at individual users. This concept is aimed at all players with the idea that everybody can more easily benefit from them. As stated in the news, there will also be hand evaluation coachings, where you could still have your hands evaluated by a coach. The idea here again is to make it more accessible to a larger group of people.

      Hopefully you will still be able to get a lot out of our new offer, despite the advantages our professional hand evaluations offered.

      Thanks for your understanding.

      Regards,
      Tino
      If they have a hard time getting used to them, improve the system or advertise it better or accept the fact that it won't be used by many people (after all few are the ones who succeed), but don't take the system down, that's not the answer!
      And the new highlighting system is not an answer as well: the general concept of certain hands can be found in videos, articles, coachings etc., while individual judging, not to consider continuity with the same coaches, can't.

      I don't really like this line of embracing the biggest amount of players vs rewarding the few hard working ones.
      Not, one, bit.

      We all know where that road leads.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,985
      Regrettably, I did not use the service half enough. When I did it was mostly for tournaments and I often found the 2-3 day wait insulting so I stopped.

      The beginning of the end was the reduction in number of hands per status and it was only a matter of time for this to happen.

      Unfortunately, the owners of PokerStrategy.com have changed and it appears that cost cutting and benefiting the proceeds is their ethos. Disappointing as this may be - get used to it because it's game over.

      Edit: I agree about the lack of advertising. There was sporadic promotions for the hand evaluation boards with bonus SPs awarded for posting. Aside from that I cannot remember anything else. Then again this was probably by design.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Why would 2-3 days be insulting? If you know how long something is going to be and you're getting something for free than nobody else offers it feels like anything but insulting to me.

      Maybe people will look back in a few years, realise hwo good they have it and really regret not using it properly.

      I understand why the changes have happened and it's not like you can't discuss strategy anymore on PokerSTRATEGY, theres still a place for people to post hands.

      What I saw when I looked at the tournaments board was one guy posting and nobody else, I was even thinking to myself "how can this be profitable for them"

      The guy was basically getting a free coach for a huge amount of hands a month, something he'd have to pay thousands and thousands for privately which is basically was as he doesn;t give screen names out etc.

      The incentive for active posters is a really good one too imo.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,985
      Hi Patrick,

      Good to see you posting here.

      The waiting period when measured against the waiting period for NL Cash hands was my issue. Anyways it's irrelevant now.

      It's not exactly free either, some people earn their status by paying rake, others buy their status.

      Getting together with study buddies on Skype and discussing hands/strategy is far more beneficial anyways. Haven't looked at the new service so can't comment.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Not going to get into a debate about it but its all relative. There was a higher demand for cash games and thus they had a bigger volume of coaches.

      Having verified coaches who crush the games will usually always be better than other regulars as usually they will be playing higher stakes and be more competent. But even so the chance to discuss with other was always availale here and I assume will remain available for the forseeable future too.

      Waiting 2 days for a response seems very reasonable too, lets say you posted 50 hands/month which you could very easily have done. If you posted this to a coach on say Skype I imagine it would very likely cost $300+ and for the higher stakes guys way more.

      The comment about paying rake for a service is very valid. I haven't compared PokerStrategy vs other affiliates but I assume it will still not be close which you get more value from. I think I looked at another "big affiliate" a couple of weeks ago, they had basically 10 videos over the last 3 months and very poor discussions in their forums. No live coaching, no exclusive seminars etc.

      The poker market is obviously always changing and is currently on a decline, of course industry related companies have to adjust too. I think its way better for PokerStrategy to adjust and remina profitable and continue to be the market leader than to be spewy and lose money and then eventually drop standards.

      People speak about PokerStrategy.com dying since the sale, which is just really wrong. They are spending resources on trying to bring new players to poker something almost everybody else has failed at. Of course forums will be quieter and cuts will have to be made but thats because of a decline in Poker not because of a decline in PokerStrategy.com

      If Poker has a 100% boom I'm pretty confident that PokerStrategy would increase the amount of videos, amount of coaching, amount of offers, but anyway I still assume they are the most +ev affiliate to be with in 99.9% of cases.

      Remember how many people have become professional poker players BECAUSE of the community and the website and will continue to improve BECAUSE of the community and the website. There is probably less than 5 other affiliates out of thousands who people can say the same and even in that 5 the number will be miniscule.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,985
      Had a big reply written then my boss came into the office and I snapped shut the browser lol.

      Not arsed writing it again. I agree with most of your post although some of it, in lack of evidence is just a fairytale.

      Have a good day amigo.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Feel free to quote stuff that is fairytale rather than suggest stuff that people are writing is untrue, thats not a cool way to do things. Although I did say in the post that some things were "assumptions"
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,985
      I guess I'll remain uncool in your eyes because what's the point in toing and froing? I'm not wasting any more time that I don't have. You have your beliefs, fair play. So do I.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Come off it! You post as much drivel on any thread you can to make PokerStrategy.com look as poorly as possible, once somebody pulls you up on it you suddenly "don't have any time to waste".

      Good luck anyway.
    • Anomic
      Anomic
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2012 Posts: 558
      It's better to get one comment from someone who knows what he's doing than 5 comments from randoms imo, we'll see how it goes. (inb4 half the playerbase going broke because of making too many mistakes.)

      Imagine a classroom full of math students who suddenly get told they have to correct eachothers exercises. The teacher will pick one of the hundreds of excercises every week to talk about and ignore the rest. Does it sound like a good idea?

      If anything it should have been encouraged to get hands evaluated because: people improving -> people moving up limits -> people raking more -> pokerstrategy getting more profit.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,985
      [quote]Originally posted by pleno1
      Not going to get into a debate about it but its all relative. There was a higher demand for cash games and thus they had a bigger volume of coaches.
      [/Quote]

      Nonsense. Each customer/member should be treated the same. Why should I have to wait 2-3 days up to a week in some cases for a hand evaluation and Joe Cash gamer gets 20 hands evaluated within the same time frame?

      I'd liken it to favouring one of my daily customers who spend €10 each day over the weekly shopper who spends €70 in one shop. Both spend the same amount of money, are a customer of mine and thus should be treated the same.

      The comment about paying rake for a service is very valid. I haven't compared PokerStrategy vs other affiliates but I assume it will still not be close which you get more value from. I think I looked at another "big affiliate" a couple of weeks ago, they had basically 10 videos over the last 3 months and very poor discussions in their forums. No live coaching, no exclusive seminars etc.
      Don't know about other affiliates so cannot comment. I do know that status' cost the same amount of money now even though people are getting less value with all the "changes" that have been made over the past 18 months.

      The poker market is obviously always changing and is currently on a decline, of course industry related companies have to adjust too. I think its way better for PokerStrategy to adjust and remina profitable and continue to be the market leader than to be spewy and lose money and then eventually drop standards.
      Adjust, yes, agree. I think over adjustments have been made though at the expense of existing loyal members. My opinion.

      People speak about PokerStrategy.com dying since the sale, which is just really wrong. They are spending resources on trying to bring new players to poker something almost everybody else has failed at. Of course forums will be quieter and cuts will have to be made but thats because of a decline in Poker not because of a decline in PokerStrategy.com
      Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me "wrong". Evidence of spending resources on trying to bring new players would be appreciated here. I'm not aware of any but I haven't been looking either. I'm not getting into a discussion about the forum, it is no longer a concern of mine. I have opinions on it but it's neither here no there.

      If Poker has a 100% boom I'm pretty confident that PokerStrategy would increase the amount of videos, amount of coaching, amount of offers.
      Speculation.

      [Quote]
      Remember how many people have become professional poker players BECAUSE of the community and the website and will continue to improve BECAUSE of the community and the website. There is probably less than 5 other affiliates out of thousands who people can say the same and even in that 5 the number will be miniscule.[/quote]Agree, but I think that ship has sailed now. The community now is not a patch on what it was and I believe that has got to do with the negative effect the changeover of management has had more so than the decline in poker as a whole.

      Again, if you disagree that's cool but don't belittle my opinion because you think it's wrong.

      Originally posted by pleno1
      Come off it! You post as much drivel on any thread you can to make PokerStrategy.com look as poorly as possible, once somebody pulls you up on it you suddenly "don't have any time to waste".
      Good luck anyway.
      I get the feeling that you didn't mean that "good luck" but whatever. Anyways, I've replied and wasted enough time on this and tonight is poker night!
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by Anomic
      It's better to get one comment from someone who knows what he's doing than 5 comments from randoms imo, we'll see how it goes. (inb4 half the playerbase going broke because of making too many mistakes.)

      Imagine a classroom full of math students who suddenly get told they have to correct eachothers exercises. The teacher will pick one of the hundreds of excercises every week to talk about and ignore the rest. Does it sound like a good idea?

      If anything it should have been encouraged to get hands evaluated because: people improving -> people moving up limits -> people raking more -> pokerstrategy getting more profit.
      Couldn't agree more.

      @pleno1 (Hi! Honor having you here :D ) and UPAY4DINNER, please stay on topic Q_Q
    • mortal1ty
      mortal1ty
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2009 Posts: 176
      You want to save money kill those shitty cartoons
    • AtrociousNightmare
      AtrociousNightmare
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by mortal1ty
      You want to save money kill those shitty cartoons
      Can we keep it constructive? Please.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,985
      Originally posted by AtrociousNightmare
      Originally posted by Anomic
      It's better to get one comment from someone who knows what he's doing than 5 comments from randoms imo, we'll see how it goes. (inb4 half the playerbase going broke because of making too many mistakes.)

      Imagine a classroom full of math students who suddenly get told they have to correct eachothers exercises. The teacher will pick one of the hundreds of excercises every week to talk about and ignore the rest. Does it sound like a good idea?

      If anything it should have been encouraged to get hands evaluated because: people improving -> people moving up limits -> people raking more -> pokerstrategy getting more profit.
      Couldn't agree more.

      @pleno1 (Hi! Honor having you here :D ) and UPAY4DINNER, please stay on topic Q_Q
      Only responded to what I was asked to Sir Pleno.
    • Ramble
      Ramble
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.11.2008 Posts: 1,460
      Originally posted by Anomic
      It's better to get one comment from someone who knows what he's doing than 5 comments from randoms imo, we'll see how it goes. (inb4 half the playerbase going broke because of making too many mistakes.)

      Imagine a classroom full of math students who suddenly get told they have to correct eachothers exercises. The teacher will pick one of the hundreds of excercises every week to talk about and ignore the rest. Does it sound like a good idea?

      If anything it should have been encouraged to get hands evaluated because: people improving -> people moving up limits -> people raking more -> pokerstrategy getting more profit.
      This has long been my view. The players and PokerStrategy.com are business partners, and the success of each should be mutually beneficial. The professional hand judging service is one tool that can help players significantly improve and in the long-term benefit PokerStrategy.com. On the surface, it doesn't seem to make sense to limit a tool that would help your business partner make money for you. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to spend money in an area that is not providing a satisfactory benefit when it could be spent in another area to more effect.

      I don't think any reasonable person could argue against the incredible value that the professional hand judging offers. Anyone who has paid for coaching knows that it is a bargain. By the same token, quality coaches aren't cheap and likely represent a significant cost - albeit one that is shared among a large membership pool.

      Unfortunately, without the numbers being available, it is hard for anyone (including me) to make a credible argument about what the best course of action is. I think a large part of the frustration comes from the change being made without consulting with the members to see why they are not using the service in the first place (other than the measures introduced some time ago to limit its use), or how it could be improved so more members would use it in a cost-effective way.