4bet bluffing

  • 11 replies
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 27,140
      I guess you mean 4 bet bluffing pre-flop. Otherwise it makes not to much sense here. I would only 4 bet bluff against a player that will play passive post-flop when he will fold a lot on 4 bet. Only problem is that you need a reasonable sample for this. That’s for other types of players pretty much the same I think.

      Cheers,
      SDK1987
    • VaskataBuci
      VaskataBuci
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.08.2011 Posts: 2,245
      Depends how much if he continues after the 4bet?
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      Sorry, my question doesn't make much sense at all! Let me try this again.

      The player was a maniac preflop, 3betting me with hands like 52s, but he was passive postflop, check calling a lot of weak/trash hands. He also didn't fold to 4bets he called with almost all of his 3 betting range.

      When I said 4bet bluff I men't hands witch have blockers like KQ, AX.

      Now my question is can I 4bet bluff vs this player, he really pissed me off :f_biggrin:

      Here is one of the hands I played vs him, I think I should of shoved the turn considering his range

      Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em $0.02 Ante - 6 players - View hand 2792071
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      CO: $66.77
      BTN: $38.36
      SB: $14.90
      BB: $55.70
      UTG: $25.62
      Hero (MP): $19.76

      Pre Flop: ($0.27) Hero is MP with A :heart: T :club:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BTN raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN calls $1.50

      Flop: ($5.27) T :heart: 7 :diamond: J :diamond: (2 players)
      Hero bets $3.35, BTN calls $3.35

      Turn: ($11.97) 5 :club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      River: ($11.97) 6 :diamond: (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $32.49 all in, Hero calls $13.89 all in

      Final Pot: $39.75
      BTN shows 3 :diamond: 4 :diamond: (a flush, Jack high)
      Hero shows A :heart: T :club: (a pair of Tens)
      BTN wins $38.25
      (Rake: $1.50)
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Now you know that he is calling 4b's IP very very wide. I would not 4b bluff him. ATo could essentially turn into a 4b for value but I don't think we have to go that far.

      My adjustment vs this guy would be to make a note:
      - 3b's wide as a semi bluff IP BTN v MP - call more OOP
      - calls 4b's wide IP BTN v MP
      - call more vs 3b's
      - 4b wider for value, do not 4b bluff / 4b bluff less.

      Since we should take an exploitative approach I like to make a note and say how I am going to exploit that tendancy going forward otherwise I would not consider it noteworthy.

      In short if the guy isn't folding much, just don't bluff him. Value bet and induce more.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      Originally posted by muel294
      Now you know that he is calling 4b's IP very very wide. I would not 4b bluff him. ATo could essentially turn into a 4b for value but I don't think we have to go that far.

      My adjustment vs this guy would be to make a note:
      - 3b's wide as a semi bluff IP BTN v MP - call more OOP
      - calls 4b's wide IP BTN v MP
      - call more vs 3b's
      - 4b wider for value, do not 4b bluff / 4b bluff less.

      Since we should take an exploitative approach I like to make a note and say how I am going to exploit that tendancy going forward otherwise I would not consider it noteworthy.

      In short if the guy isn't folding much, just don't bluff him. Value bet and induce more.
      So I shouldn't be 4 bet bluffing the blocker hands, trying to take the pot down, When villain calls 4bets wide, its quite
      frustrating in these spots, even if I am ahead of his range If I cbet flop he exploits me by calling and stealing on the turn how do I counteract this exploitative play?

      can we go into more detail on each decision please because this is a very weak area for me maybe it will help me

      Say like lets start with 4 betting with blocker hands reasons for it and against it and so on?
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      I am by no means an expert in terms of 4-betting. It is something I need to improve upon myself. SO PLEASE TAKE THIS WITHA PINCH OF SALT. I can however, give you my basic understanding of it:

      :spade: We should be 4-betting with blockers for card removal reasons. i.e it reduceds the combos of QQ+ and AK villain can have and therefore should reduce the likelyhood of villain continuing vs us by calling or 5-betting.
      :spade: AFAIK we should do it with hands that are the bottom of the range we would call a 3b with.
      :spade: if villain is 3b'ing us frequently then YES we should be 4-betting to take down the dead money / get better hands to fold sometimes (i.e if he is the type to 3b/fold AJ/AQ for example)
      :spade: however he needs to be folding to 4b's often as well. If not I feel like we are just pissing in the wind if we intend to bluff. In this specific instance if he's calling us with much worse, I doubt we can categorize a 4b with AT as a bluff now.
      :spade: vs a guy who isn't folding much why complicate things? Just play back at him with stronger ranges. I doubt he will see what we are doing and adjust.

      As far as the postflop situation goes. In short. I'm not sure how I would deal with it. But I think the problem stems from the preflop decision.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      First of all, let me say thank you for taking your time to try and help me, you said your no expert yourself, you might actually benefit from this conversation too in that case, when we wright out what we already know, it helps to enforce the knowledge so we can use it when we need it most.

      What did you mean by AFAIK?

      I think the very last thing you said is the most important thing when facing this opponent.
      But I think the problem stems from preflop decision.
      What do you think about really tightening ranges to AQ+ TT+ maybe 99 and open shoving vs his 3bet at 100bbs?

      If you think about it we don't really have a big enough stack size to play in a 4bet pot anyway. I wonder if we get many tilt calls from this player?

      surely this would be more profitable then the approach I took in the hand above?
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      First of all, let me say thank you for taking your time to try and help me, you said your no expert yourself, you might actually benefit from this conversation too in that case, when we wright out what we already know, it helps to enforce the knowledge so we can use it when we need it most.
      Totally agree. I hope someone more experienced can weigh in on this for that very reason. The reason I wanted to stress this though is so you don't give too much credit to my views. Afterall it's just my opinion on the matter.

      AFAIK: as far as I know. Probs shouldn't use too many abbreviations.

      Not sure about 3b shoving. Depends if he 3b/folds a tonne when faced with a decision for his entire stack. I think based on what we currently know vs villain then a direct shove with this range should be fine 100 bb deep. Since I wouldn't know what to do in a 4b pot if I missed I think this may be better than 4b'ing small. Also if he 5b's it is almost always JJ+ and AQ+ still I think. Again I can't be sure without further reads or stats.

      If he is 3b'ing us wide then we might want to call and play OOP with such a range. If he is passive postflop as you say. We wouldn't expect him to bluff us much postflop. Also, in this instance villain flopped a flushdraw. This is probably the nuts to him. He may still be the type to play fit/fold postflop if he has air, which he frequently will IMO. I notice that villain also did not float us here, instead he chose to take a free card. I think this is important in terms of how we approach postflop situations vs him:
      1) we wouldn't want to induce too much postflop
      2) we can bet wider for value postflop
      3) villain will be playing fairly straightforwardly and honestly. I would expect this guy to bet/raise himself with TP+ and strong draws
      4) I would expect him to call any pair and any draw.

      I think this same can be said if you were to play as the preflop aggressor in a 4b as deep as you both were.

      By the way. I like the way you played preflop and on the flop Turn could be a small value bet 1/4 - 1/3 ( villain will be like: "I haz pair, I call" or " I haz draw, I call" ) in the above hand I just don't get your river check/call given that your read was that he was passive postflop.
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      okay ill start this off by explaining, why I took a passive line after the flop. Witch I need to thank you for pointing this out :f_drink: .

      After reading The Mental Game of Poker, I found that one of my mental problems is that I get nervous in 3-4bet pots, I guess this could be down to possibly losing a huge pot, anyway, I found that any time I got nervous I turned in a passive calling station :f_biggrin: , so when he calls my flop bet, I start feeling nervous, and turn into check call mode. You might need to read the book to understand this, I don't know, but when emotions kick in, in these certain spots, what it actually does, is block you thinking clearly, before I went into the hand I new what I was going to do, I was going to bet shove the flop on this kind of board, I know our hand may look weak, but there is a ton of weak draws and weak hands he can call with. But in the moment when emotions take over, you forget everything your learning, the only things that show up at this point are things that you have mastered, I.e if I had AA I have an easy decision and even if I get nervous I will shove that turn. But I forgot that passive players don't bet with vry strong hands because that is still being mastered. I tried to put this into the best words I could so you could understand, but my literature isn't that great :f_biggrin: .

      Moving on to this topic,

      This player didn't fold to cbets very often at all, witch makes 4bet bluffing even more stupid since we miss the flop 67% of the time and got to play check fold, when we miss - Do you agree with this?

      I think something may have just clicked here when you said, lets see if you agree.

      If he is 3b'ing us wide then we might want to call and play OOP with such a range. If he is passive postflop as you say. We wouldn't expect him to bluff us much postflop
      Although this player is 3betting us wide, maybe there is a reason, and its because we fold to 3bets too much, or maybe he is just doing it, I read in the strategy section, I put it in the spoiler
      Now you have a first impression of how you can 3-bet in addition to 3-betting for value. Next, we will have to clarify when and against whom this makes any sense at all. Deceptive 3-bets are something like a semibluff before the flop. The conditions for the respective profitabilities are comparable. One part comes from the fold equity, the other part from the pots which you win in a showdown.

      so by right he isn't making any mistakes preflop and postflop, by being passive witch means,(this is probably by accident who knows), we should always 4bet/fold. The reason he might of been calling 4bets with these hands, might not be that he is a bad player, but, like me got nervous when put in this situation and didn't have a solid well known strategy for it. Now lets say he does make mistakes postflop with multi barrel bluffs, I think we can call with all our range even AA KK, and just bluff catching since that's all he's doing, and he will occasionally hit a monster that we wont lose a stack to if we check back the flop, that is if he is folding vs 4bets, what do you think about this?
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Sorry for the late reply. I've had some issues with my PC / interenet connectivity.

      After reading The Mental Game of Poker, I found that one of my mental problems is that I get nervous in 3-4bet pots, I guess this could be down to possibly losing a huge pot, anyway, I found that any time I got nervous I turned in a passive calling station :f_biggrin: , so when he calls my flop bet, I start feeling nervous, and turn into check call mode. You might need to read the book to understand this,


      I do have the 1st mental game book by Jared Tendler. I never finished it though as I prioritised some other books. I will hopefully get back to it at some stage though. Very good book from what I have already read though. Regarding going blank. I also do this when I am in a spot in which I feel uncomfortable. Particularly 3b/4b pots. I tend to spew. What I have found helps best with this is if we actively put villain on a range. Eg, vs most unknowns I like to assume they just 3b for value JJ+, AQs+ or QQ+ and AKo+ until I know them better. Once I have an estimated range. I then have a plan preflop and postflop. This is easier said than done obviously. Especially vs a villain like the one in your example where his range can be very wide, therefore I think its tough to estimate his range and play accordingly. Without this info I tend to spew.


      I don't know, but when emotions kick in, in these certain spots, what it actually does, is block you thinking clearly, before I went into the hand I new what I was going to do, I was going to bet shove the flop on this kind of board, I know our hand may look weak, but there is a ton of weak draws and weak hands he can call with. But in the moment when emotions take over, you forget everything your learning, the only things that show up at this point are things that you have mastered,

      "Things that you have mastered" - unconscious competence :f_biggrin:

      I.e if I had AA I have an easy decision and even if I get nervous I will shove that turn. But I forgot that passive players don't bet with vry strong hands because that is still being mastered. I tried to put this into the best words I could so you could understand, but my literature isn't that great
      Yeah. This is the most important point for me. If we boil this situation down and simplify it. Is villain likely to bluff us on the river? ( Nope, probably not given our read) Is villain likely to value bet worse hands ( nah, he prob just checks behind with showdown value). When we simplify it to these two points the river decision becomes easy IMO. But like you say you get nervous in big pots and forget strategy / freeze up or whatever. The important thing is that we have learned from our mistake. Also something that gets me in these spots is the fact that I have to fold after investing so many BB ( not really concerned about the $ aspect) and that just causes my red-line to plummet which really irks me, so we hate to "give up".

      and just to re-iterate I like your line pre and postflop and the thought process and thinking, its just the river decision IMO.

      This player didn't fold to cbets very often at all, witch makes 4bet bluffing even more stupid since we miss the flop 67% of the time and got to play check fold, when we miss - Do you agree with this?
      Totally agree. If he's not folding much at any point in the hand then our 3b/4b bluff and c-bet attempts aren't going to work. Obviously our sizing has an impact on the % of the time our attempts have to work in order to be profitable. Incidentally this is something I have been reading about recently in Jonathan Little's Excelling at NLHE there is a section by Alex Fitzgerald called "Range Analysis: The correct way to analyse poker hands" it covers these concepts and puts them in an easy to understand context. I strongly recommend you get read this section.

      Although this player is 3betting us wide, maybe there is a reason, and its because we fold to 3bets too much, or maybe he is just doing it, I read in the strategy section, I put it in the spoiler
      Exactly. Although be very very careful about "levelling" yourself into thinking that your opponent's are some poker genius that is exploiting you all the time. Maybe they are, but chances are they're not. I like to assume everyone's is an idiot until proven otherwise. Either by what we have seen at showdown or stats or just the way they play. If you have Pokertracker or Holdem Manager then I strongly suggest you visit the stats section to see what your fold to pf3b is like. If it's over 70-75% then chances are some attentive opponents will be exploiting this. However, the vast majority of the time folding to 3b's will be the correct play. Remember. Being too tight is less of a leak than being too loose. And, the player pool is bad enough in general that we can still be a significant winner even if our game isn't water tight. Some things to keep in mind I think.

      Villains hand selection speaks volumes about his overall play IMO. The fact that he choose :3d: :4d: to 3b shows that he knows. "ooo this hand is too weak to call, but I can definitely get my opponent to fold better. I'll use it as a 3b bluff". Tht's probably as far as villains thinking extends. I could be wrong.
      - Maybe villain is just doing this b/c he thinks it's funny and he just plays recreationally. So it's a bit of fun to him to 3b with all these weird hands.
      - Maybe he's seen some aggressive play like this on TV and wants to be like the people he's seen on TV but doesn't understand the strategy behind it or that the people he saw on TV had a specific read or dynamic at the time.
      Either way villain chose to play his draw passively postflop IP which seems reasonable after the 4b but villains is probably going to look something like this and this is a conservative estimation of his range IMO:

             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    48.29%  46.59%   1.69% { 99+, A2s+, K9s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 84s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, AJo+, KQo }
      MP3    51.71%  50.02%   1.69% { ATo }

      As we can see we have about 50% vs this range, so if he is any wider then 4b'ing ATo for value makes sense in a vacuum (i.e not taking into consideration any other factors)

      so by right he isn't making any mistakes preflop and postflop, by being passive witch means,(this is probably by accident who knows), we should always 4bet/fold. The reason he might of been calling 4bets with these hands, might not be that he is a bad player, but, like me got nervous when put in this situation and didn't have a solid well known strategy for it. Now lets say he does make mistakes postflop with multi barrel bluffs, I think we can call with all our range even AA KK, and just bluff catching since that's all he's doing, and he will occasionally hit a monster that we wont lose a stack to if we check back the flop, that is if he is folding vs 4bets, what do you think about this?
      In this instance villain played his hand reasonbly if we ignore the hand selection aspect. You are both deep, he is IP and might have considerable implieds odds vs your percieved strong range. These are all valid arguments for villains line. On the flop he decided to flat call IP as he has a flush draw. He hasn't taken an aggressive line. Probably b/c his FD is weak and he thinks your range is strong and is unlikely to get you to fold much. Again he probably thinks he has good implieds (he also has some massive reverse implied odds, this is this reason we hate he hand selection IMO). On the turn he gets the chance for a free card and takes it b/c he thinks your range is strong and just wants to bink a straight or a flush as cheaply as possible. So yes, he has potentially unwittingly taken a reasonable line.

      Regarding that we should "always 4b/fold" this is debatable. I hate the words always and never in poker. There are so many variables that might make us lean one way or the other.

      I think 4b/fold would be good if:
      - villain is 3b'ing us too much and folds to 4b's frequently and by frequently I mean around 60% of the time over a decent sample size. (this is the threshold for auto-profiting from a 4b based on villains fold to 4b stats according to w34z3l ) . Therefore his range is likely wide and weak and we will pick up the dead money OOP often.
      - villain is 3b us too much and call's 4b's frequently (our villain's case) - villains 3b'ing range is wide and weak and fro the range his calling a large proportion of weak and marginal hands and only 5-betting QQ+ or something. I this case we have more of a value 4b preflop and postflop but against his 5-betting range we are clearly boned. But this instance is exceptional and rare, especially at the micros IMO.

      Regarding flatting our entire continuing range vs 3b's. This may make sense in theory if villains fold to 4b was 100% of the time ( I mean if villain 's only option if we click it back is to fold). Then we should only ever 4b bluff villain and flat all our strong hands. So like you say this only really makes sense if villain is folding too much to 4b's and bluffing postflop. Therefore we flat to keep in his weaker range and allow him to bluff sometimes and for deception.

      #essay#haventdonethismuchtypingsinceschool
    • FrozenElf
      FrozenElf
      Silver
      Joined: 06.07.2015 Posts: 654
      Sorry for the late reply. I've had some issues with my PC / interenet connectivity.
      That's fine you don't need to be sorry i can wait :f_drink: .

      Yeah. This is the most important point for me. If we boil this situation down and simplify it. Is villain likely to bluff us on the river? ( Nope, probably not given our read) Is villain likely to value bet worse hands ( nah, he prob just checks behind with showdown value). When we simplify it to these two points the river decision becomes easy IMO. But like you say you get nervous in big pots and forget strategy / freeze up or whatever. The important thing is that we have learned from our mistake. Also something that gets me in these spots is the fact that I have to fold after investing so many BB ( not really concerned about the $ aspect) and that just causes my red-line to plummet which really irks me, so we hate to "give up".

      and just to re-iterate I like your line pre and postflop and the thought process and thinking, its just the river decision IMO.
      I believe the mistake in this hand is on the turn, not the river, (i agree with you its a mistake to call the river) we know he is loose passive, and calls with lots of draws and weak hands, if we shove the Turn, i don't think we are making a mistake, i don't think he has that many hands in his range that beat us, since all sets will likely raise the flop, QQ will likely 5bet (although im not completely discounting it) so really the only hands here that beat us are, JJ and QQ. I think that points to a clear shove on the turn, what do you think?

      Exactly. Although be very very careful about "levelling" yourself into thinking that your opponent's are some poker genius that is exploiting you all the time. Maybe they are, but chances are they're not. I like to assume everyone's is an idiot until proven otherwise.
      Its ironic that you mentioned this, ive been doing a lot of mental game work the last few days, and i moved on from the basics to tilt and managing emotions, i got reading the tilt section and found my way to "injustice tilt", now in this section it talks about spotting, good variance and bad variance, the skill of recognising your own skill, and the skill of recognising your opponents skill. Understanding these is extremely important, as a poker player to improve, for example it says: you remember all the times when you get bad beats, and naturally this cause's the brain to get really good at spotting bad variance, but your really bad at spotting good variance. So lets say you shove all in and get lucky, you come away from the table thinking you played great, when the fact remains that your lack of skill at spotting good variance is blocking you from correcting a mistake, this cause's an illusion, that you don't make any mistakes, and logically, why would you want to work on your game if your making no mistakes? see how this works?

      This brings me to your comment above witch indicates, you should read these 3 sections in the book, p94 injustice tilt, and 209 for recognising variance, the skill of spotting your own skill and the skill of spotting your opponent's skill,

      I like to assume everyone's is an idiot until proven otherwise
      when you said this, after ive been studying, the sections i mentioned above, this is what stuck out to me, since the things we say or do, often indicate mental game problems, we sit down to play poker, we make our decisions, based on our opponent's mistakes, when an unknown player sits down, and we play vs him, like we would play vs an "idiot" (I actually don't like this term anymore either i used to say this.), we are in fact making mistakes vs him, especially if he is a reg/good player, he will crush us, because we are doing things like multi barrelling hands we shouldn't be, then after loseing a stack, we say "oh he isn't an idiot" by this time we are mad with ourselves witch leads to more mistakes, frustration and tilt. The simple way to fix this is, to inject logic.

      "Even if my unknown opponent's are idiot's, i cant win vs them until i know there weakness's"

      Here is a hand i played in a similar way earlier, vs unknown, a reg will fold to a double barrel, because my range is a OP, so my bet on the turn here is only ever going to get raised by a set or 2 pair, and never called by AT, vs a reg i would check back the turn call/bet river, vs an unknown i should do the same.

      Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em $0.01 Ante - 6 players - View hand 2797446
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      BTN: $17.97
      SB: $5.00
      BB: $13.21
      UTG: $10.21
      Hero (MP): $6.72
      CO: $5.00

      Pre Flop: ($0.13) Hero is MP with K :heart: K :diamond:
      1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, 3 folds, BB calls $0.10

      Flop: ($0.38) Q :heart: 5 :diamond: T :club: (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $0.23, BB calls $0.23

      Turn: ($0.84) 3 :spade: (2 players)
      BB checks, Hero bets $0.53, BB raises to $1.06, Hero folds

      Final Pot: $1.90
      BB wins $1.82
      (Rake: $0.08)



      This is where, i changed my opinion about calling people idiots, and started focusing entirely on what are they doing wrong, If i have this guy noted calls double barrels with top pair after cold calling, then i can start double barrelling my over pairs vs hin, and thin value betting the river, and not until. in the last few days my game is on a whole new level, im thinking so much clear all round, even when im tilting slightly, my decisions are really well though out still with this approach, that's just after 3 days.

      Incidentally this is something I have been reading about recently in Jonathan Little's Excelling at NLHE there is a section by Alex Fitzgerald called "Range Analysis: The correct way to analyse poker hands" it covers these concepts and puts them in an easy to understand context. I strongly recommend you get read this section.
      I will certainly look into this!

      After this discussion, what do you think to this solution.

      With this hand, since he is calling 4bets and not folding to cbets in 4bet pots, and 3betting so wide, i think the best thing to do would be tighten up to AQ 99+, and just shove AK, AQ 99-JJ and 4bet QQ-AA, after playing back at him like this i don't think we will be 3betting you for very long, i think we just need to be patient.

      Here is something else to keep in mind, for us to profitably call his 3bets with hands like 99-QQ, (i think that is a good start) he needs to be making post flop mistakes, i.e multi barrel bluffing in 3bet pots, now do you see how the skill of recognising your opponents skill, fits in with this, if he is passive in 3bet pots like he is, then calling is a HUGE mistake especially if we fold a lot vs 3bets, since half the money he makes comes from the times we fold preflop and the other half comes from the times he hits big, essentially we are calling him with JJ to bluff catch, because better will really only call think about what an 89s is going to do in a 3bet pot vs multiple bets, we only get called by the top of his 3 betting range, "half the money he makes comes from the times we fold preflop" this brings me back to the preflop adjustment, now since he is exploiting the fact we fold to 3bets often (probably for the reasons you said he seen it on tv :f_biggrin: , the reason why is irrelevant, at this point since its micros and we have to much shit to improve without thinking about levelling like you said lol.) if we play that range above, he is no longer unable to exploit our high fold vs 3bet stat, and he will not notice we have drastically tightened up our range and feel so confident because we have folded 3 times already, he starts getting over confident another part of the book im not, jumping into that just yet :f_drink:

      Id like to add one last thing, i think that this conversation has lead me to where i am now and im playing so much better, id like to thank you for taking your time to help me :f_drink:

      Tell me about it, its like being back at school :f_biggrin: