[NL2-NL10] Nl25 [KK]

    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Thought that the villain is showing weakness with the minbet, so the question here is. What are the best actions?
      a) Raise - to see if the villain is bluffing
      b) Call - to see following actions
      c) Fold - just safe fold and save the money

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $5,25
      Hero:
      $4,65

      0,1/0,25 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.65 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with K:diamond: , K:spade:
      6 folds, Hero raises to $1,00, SB calls $0,90, BB folds.

      Flop: ($2,25) T:heart: , A:heart: , 4:diamond: (2 players)
      SB bets $0,50, Hero calls $0,50.

      Turn: ($3,25) 5:heart: (2 players)
      SB bets $0,50, Hero calls $0,50.

      River: ($4,25) K:heart: (2 players)
      SB bets $1,00, Hero raises to $2,65 (All-In), SB folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $6,25
  • 14 replies
    • burek2000
      burek2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 3,105
      I wouldn't call here, since I don't wanna call another bet on the turn with this board. So, if we consider only push/fold options, I fold my KK anytime with A on the flop. Specially if you don't have any reads/stats on the opponent.
    • allizdoR
      allizdoR
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 4,568
      small bets are weak bets and weak bets are weak hands.

      So I raise the Flop.
      Sometimes I call the Flop and raise any non :heart: Turn.

      But a calldown is too weak here. And also your Riverraise is bad. Normally he will fold nothing on the River. And any Flush has beat you.

      Mostly people make a small bet because they hope to get cheaply to the next street.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      See other post
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      I call 1/4 sized flopbet. I call 2BB non :heart: Turn bet. but now turn does complete that FD i'm not so sure. I'm definately not pushing on river with that 4th :heart:
    • allizdoR
      allizdoR
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 4,568
      Originally posted by Gerv
      My question to you veriz is , what can you beat on the River and Turn?

      Calling does not give you much information with a monkey with a 9 with his AFq..

      Reraise the Flop to $1.75 as though you did a normal c-bet and fold if he goes all-in

      I leave this one open for the other judges because I think Reraising the Flop with like 50% of your stack isnt the optimal play but I think shoving here is a way-ahead or way-behind situation..

      - Gerv
      I think we are committed after a Flop raise. Because there are many draws which are 3-betting.
      We should bet something around PS or push direktly. Important would be a note which hand he played like this.
      Perhaps we could raise the Flop and fold due a Turn donk of an :heart: . But I consider to go broke on the Flop
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      After reviewing, discussion I think I will fold this on Post-Flop.

      Going broke results in high variance and doing it with an official trash hand isn't the best move

      - Reraising makes us committed , also a Call will give us no information whatsoever and makes us committed as well.

      A fold and A note is the easiest and mostly OK play.

      - Gerv
    • allizdoR
      allizdoR
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 4,568
      gerv you make me crying.... ;)

      perhaps a fold has less variance and a fold will nobody notice. So nobody see, that we fold on a Ace high Borad for only 2BB.

      From now I will donk always 2BB into the PFA on a Ace high Board.
      I hope you see, we cant fold. Nevertheless its an ugly spot.

      Calling and reevalute the Turn is also better then folding the Flop.

      You can say, its NL25 and we exactly play the Strategy on NL25 and according to this KK is trahs and we fold trash. But its also important to improve your game always a littel when you move up.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Hold on, Whats wrong with just Pushing Flop and making a note? It could be high Variance but who cares? We now have some useful info on the villain.

      Imo Calling often just lands us in deeper muck as we often get another 2BB bet into us on turn and then our remaining stack pushed in on river.

      If on the other hand Villain Checks Turn to Us I feel we pretty much have to push to take the initiative away from him otherwise we often just face a bigger sized bet on river which is then also a tricky spot.

      Basically, I think we're committed anyway here so why not just get it over with on the flop, push against this idiot, take a note and keep watching him to confirm how often he makes these sizes of bets so we know what to do next time?

      What do you think?

      btw, I agree with Allizdor that folding Flop isn't good without prior reads.

      edit; The more opinions on this one the better. So I marked it unjudged.
    • matt1234
      matt1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 99
      I'm really not sure what to do here. As suggested I wouldn't ever consider folding. Calling to float looks an attractive option, and sticking in a raise on a non- :heart: turn. Pushing flop will get the same result perhaps, but maybe he folds with a weak ace if you float? Think you have to be committed to the hand as I think you are ahead >40% of the time here.
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,477
      Calling the flop doesnt make a lot of sense to me. Do you want to go broke if he bets the turn? If yes, then push the flop ^^

      The only thing i know for sure is that raising the river is bad. just call
    • matt1234
      matt1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 99
      Ingol - HU calling = strength, raising = weakness surely? If you want to push someone off a hand you raise, which is why I think a call then push represents more strength than a straight push.

      Also as you say - river raise = shocking. Must call.
    • Fongie
      Fongie
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 4,978
      Originally posted by matt1234
      Ingol - HU calling = strength, raising = weakness surely? If you want to push someone off a hand you raise, which is why I think a call then push represents more strength than a straight push.
      Calling gives him a really cheap draw for the flush... raising means protection, not weakness.
    • matt1234
      matt1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 99
      Protection?? Protecting what? You are protecting a hand you could very well be behind in, the entire debate is on the fact the flop has come down A high? Do you really think the villian calls with 2 hearts on this board? The A :heart: is gone, K is an unlikely card, so perhaps QJ :heart: ? I'd suggest by raising you are committing yourself where you could very much be behind to a weak A. Float and then push I think will eradicate the weaker aces. If you are against a flush draw then I don't think villain is folding unless you push directly on flop, which is moronic imo.


      In fact - by that logic the call is the better option, when a :heart: comes you can bluff the fact that you had the flush draw!
    • allizdoR
      allizdoR
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2007 Posts: 4,568
      I think he wont fold a weak A on a non :heart: Turn.

      Perhas he fold on a :heart: Turn some Aces, but his isnt for sure. And its only NL25.

      Your play sounds like a total Bluff, so we can also do it with 72o and this makes no sense to me on NL25, its a way to agressive.

      What I have already said is, the small bet indicated very often a draw and sometime AA or a weak Ace.
      If we like variance the best move should be raising the Flop.
      A bit more conservative way is calling Flop and betting/pushing a non :heart: Turn.
      But I tend to the first option. If somebody want, he can make a EV calculation for the EV for the three options (third option is folden the Flop)