[Closed] contibet with kings in reraised pot A high board ?

I would also check here to induce the shove/bluff from the shorty and always call here when he shove. The problem here is when you bet out on the flop and the bigstack raises you you have to fold i guess.
No with you check you can get out of the hand easy when the bigger stack bets out. But now the bigger stack also check so you are almost certain he doesnt like that ace either.
Like you say the shorty can push with anything fasing two checks before him after the flop so thats an easy call for me.

(PS: Look at my thread in strategy section ♦)

not sure about preflop with raiser + two callers , was 1800 in pot + your raise of pot and as soon as one call then the other gets odds

was told that with As/Ks you dont want more than two callers but understand you dont want to scare them off as well

liked the way you played the flop

Hi,

Hate the preflop raise amount. Its asking for multiple calls.

Up against 2 villains, why not just fold the flop? Do you seriously think a call here is good in the long run?

i raised so low preflop because i wanted the smallish stacks to come along.
with queens or jacks i would have raised to about 4k and try t win the hand right now.
but with kings its different.

and look at the stacks.

MP1 has only 5k left. if he calls my raise he should rather push all in because the pot is so big he would not have chips in the size of the pot.
MP3 has a bit more but still if MP1 calls he should push or fold.
and i dont care much about the button. if he calls my raise he is pot comitted no matter what flop comes.

so i think because of the stacksizes all of them should be inclined to push or fold, and thats what i was looking for.
i was trying to induce an all in move by one of the smaller stacks.
it didnt happen here but i think its still correct because of the stack sizes to try to use this.

so the flop came as bad as possible.
now i check and i would not have called the bigger stack, but the tiny 2700 all in move ?

the pot is 6600 and i only need to call 2700, thats about 2,4:1
so i only need to win less then 30% to break even in the long run.

and against a desperate small stack i think the chance he moves all in here with KJ, a flush draw or queens is higher then 30%

so yes, i think in the long run this call is profitable.
last but not least i have a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight draw which makes me 4 combined outs IF he holds an ace.

Hi,

Can you have a play with equilator, and post your results? I have, and theres no way I can make this call profitable, not even close. I'd like to know what you come up with here.

Thx,
Stiev

ok i put some hands in his range

Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.218% 53.13% 00.09% 25771 45.00 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 46.782% 46.69% 00.09% 22649 45.00 { QQ-88, AJs+, Q :spade:J :spade:, J :spade:T :spade:, AQo+ }

i think this range might be good.
i dont put aces and kings inhis rang because he only calls the first raise and calls MY reraise.

and dont forget there is allways a chance he pure bluffs.

Well, when you make the all-in call, there is still another player to act, so these ranges are pretty useless imo. We aren't HU when we make the call

yea thats true.
but do you think a player is patience enough to call two raises preflop, that hit the ace with a md stackon a drawheavy board and CHECK the hand ?

that would be a big mistake.

and even if i give BOTH players this range
its kinda like this

Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.163% 30.01% 00.15% 539876 2685.67 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 34.919% 32.91% 02.01% 592018 36089.17 { QQ-88, AJs+, QsJs, JsTs, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 34.919% 32.91% 02.01% 592018 36089.17 { QQ-88, AJs+, QsJs, JsTs, AQo+ }

so with 30% equity im still doing good if MP3 pushes all in.

the main thing about this play is to bet out the flop ? check / fold the flop, or to induce a bluff and reevaluate.

Giving the fact that he called the raise, and called the reraise, I dont think he'd bet out with the ace tbh.

We don't have 30% equity here, not by a long shot. Maybe them ranges are good in a $1 MTT, but I disagree with them on this limit.

hm there is one thing i might take into account which you dont
they BOTH call a raise and a reraise with their stacks.
so they are donks for shure.
which hand is good for calling a raise , then calling another reraise with their stacks ?
there is really no hand at all which might be good for this play.

so both of them seem fishy to me.

so which range do YOU give them ?

and again, the small stack can push all in here with almost anything because he is so short, so his range might be even loser then that.

and if he dont bet out with the ace, what flop was he hoping for with an Ace in his hand ?

should he give someone with KQ, or 2 spades a free shot ?
no i think the best guess is that MP3 even has a low pair or a set.
and there are much more low pairs then sets.

Yes I agree their preflop play is terrible, in fact, the whole preflop play is terrible by all 3 players. A standard raise preflop would avoid such situations.

So as you said they are really fishy. I agree. They are also pretty passive. So do you think a guy who calls a raise and reraise is bothered about betting out and protecting his ace? I don't. As they seem passive, when the bet comes, do you expect him not to have an ace often enough? and if you do, what about the player still to act?

The problem is we cant put MP3 on a range here, so do we take the chance he doesn't have an ace behind us? I agree the button could have a drawing hand (slight chance), but still I don't think we can call profitably here.

Also counting back door draw outs is just a bad effort to try an sway this call in your favour imo.

The mistake in this hand is preflop. There are 3 guys, the pot is allready big, there is no need to make them all call. Your equity shrinks a lot with every single player who calls. If the big stack calls the other 2 very often call as well. If they are bad players, they won't push over your raise, they rather call. So that argument doesn't count. I definitely raise bigger preflop and then we don't have a postflop problem to discuss about.

One fault preflop leads to more faults postflop.

TribunCaesar

hm i think backdoor outs should be counted.
their are allways good as an out.
of course outs are not the main problem here.

and i agree a higher raise preflop would have cutted down this problem.

but still i dont think its too bad an idea to raise the smaller amout because of the stack sizes.

but i dont know what to say now.

still i think calling the smallstack here is good.
true there is the chance mp3 holds an ace. but i dont think the chance is so high that we shold fold to the small stacks all in.

all plays smells like low pairs on mp3.

and the pot is so damn big, i just cant lay down here to the small stack.

i think to bet out on the flop would be the better play to avoid the sandwich
this sandwich is really really bad.
but i cant fold kings here with so good odds against this desperate fish smallie....

all is said.
dont know. im not really confident with my play here, but your old play on the flop seemes still a bit too scared to me.

Also, bare in mind, the player still to act has more chips, which we would have to call if he pushed behind on the flop.

Originally posted by grummeler
Board: As Jd 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.218% 53.13% 00.09% 25771 45.00 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 46.782% 46.69% 00.09% 22649 45.00 { QQ-88, AJs+, Q :spade:J :spade:, J :spade:T :spade:, AQo+ }

88-QQ QJs and JTs but only AQo+?? are you kidding me? No wonder you have a 53% equity you gave him the (for you) best range. But it's barely reasonable

I don't claim to be a good MTT player but this range looks horrible to me. Sorry.

i cant see even the most fishes calling two raises preflop with less then AQo+

this range is the range combined preflop and flopplay.

i dont think the biggest fish will call a raise and a reraise with ATo
thats why the range is so close.

and NO i didnt take into account the stonecold bluffs.

you think he will call a raise and a reraise preflop with AT ?
sorry then they are capable of pushing all in with 22 here too.

you have to think about what hands he can hold PREFLOP AND on this flop.

dont see him calling here with AT, and if you put AJo into account the situation changes by nothing.

and JTs takes into account a lose prelopcall (i think calling with JTs is better then calling with AT although both plays are horrible)

but players like to call with suited connectors.

and i dont take the 67s 89s and so on.

and EVEN if we change the second players range to
77+,AJs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo i have 32% equity.
when you add the aces down to ATo and A8s i still have 28% equity.

and all i read is that my range is horrible.
then plz post me a reasonable range for calling a raise preflop a reraise with their stacks.
plz i wanne know what REASONABLE HANDS they can hold here.

ah and for the backdoorflush...

if we change my king from spade to heart, we lose alot of equity, close to 4%

I just don't understand how on the one hand you say that he would call 88-QQ and on the other hand claim that he won't call with AT but with TJs. I bet this guys are more intended to call AT or AJ than TJs here.
I also doubt that BU would only coldcall QQ here preflop.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.854% 29.70% 00.15% 1133002 5806.50 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 70.146% 69.99% 00.15% 2669945 5806.50 { JJ-TT, AJs+, QsJs, AQo+ }

you'll probably disagree with the range but I even put QJs in it although I think it is very unlikely tbh. But since the ranges we give hima re pretty small every single change changes our equity a lot. But I tend to make their ranges rather tight to be a 100% sure that I'm making the right decisions.

I pretty much think the same as chiller on this.

With the added danger of a guy pushing behind us, we simply can not call with this equity.

Plus the added 4% you are interested in with our backdoor draws, shows how marginal this is, even without the guy still to act.