Mucked hands mucked for players in the hand??

    • TimothyVdp1
      TimothyVdp1
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.12.2007 Posts: 5,820
      so yesterday the following hand occured:

      ***** Hand History for Game 7669753201 *****
      0.50/1 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Fri Jan 02 18:43:49 EST 2009
      Table Table 128027 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
      Total number of players : 6
      Seat 1: ClemmeLugter ( $191.45)
      Seat 2: Snakkas ( $101.08)
      Seat 3: Thohal ( $109.15)
      Seat 4: TimothyVdp2 ( $215.06)
      Seat 5: Bluffpasta ( $153.46)
      Seat 6: anderdeman ( $210.86)
      Bluffpasta posts small blind (0.50)
      anderdeman posts big blind (1)
      ** Dealing down cards **
      Dealt to TimothyVdp2 [ Ah, 5c ]
      ClemmeLugter folds
      Snakkas folds
      Thohal folds
      TimothyVdp2 raises (3) to 3
      Bluffpasta folds
      anderdeman calls (2)
      ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2c, 3d, 9c ]
      anderdeman checks
      TimothyVdp2 bets (4)
      anderdeman calls (4)
      ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]
      anderdeman checks
      TimothyVdp2 bets (10)
      anderdeman calls (10)
      ** Dealing River ** : [ Td ]
      anderdeman checks
      TimothyVdp2 bets (28)
      anderdeman calls (28)
      ** Summary **
      Main Pot: $87.50 | Rake: $3
      Board: [ 2c 3d 9c 4h Td ]
      ClemmeLugter balance $191.45, didn't bet (folded)
      Snakkas balance $101.08, didn't bet (folded)
      Thohal balance $109.15, didn't bet (folded)
      TimothyVdp2 balance $257.56, bet $45, collected $87.50, net +$42.50 [ Ah 5c ] [ a straight Ace to Five -- Ah,5c,4h,3d,2c ]
      Bluffpasta balance $152.96, lost $0.50 (folded)
      anderdeman balance $165.86, lost $45


      as u can see i the raw HH, I won the hand but couldn't see villains hand, what the hell?
      so I mailed support and this is what they replied:

      Hi Timothy,

      Thank you for taking the time to write to us and Happy New Year!

      Unfortunately once the Muck Losing Hand feature is enabled on our tables you will not be able to see the opponent's cards when at showdown he has the losing hand. This feature is present on all of our tables and can not be removed.

      I am sorry for the inconvenience this may have caused you! I understand that it is important for every player to have this information at hand in order to understand better the opponent's strategies but it is up to the player to decide whether or not he will reveal his cards to his opponents or not. I hope for your understanding in this matter!


      this can't be normal?
      I mailed them back and still awaiting response...
  • 21 replies
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      anderdeman out of position.... this can't be real Tim..

      I cannot imagine that on HSP, someone c/c the River and then mucks(loses) it as if he just gives you $28...

      I think its a bug but wtf
    • Alafoe
      Alafoe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2008 Posts: 202
      This is normal. First shows the last agressor (you). Your opponent have to show if his hand is better (rule in the most of the online rooms) but he should muck if he lost. On ipoker IE is the bug that you see their cards even if they muck but its not in general. He simply had worst hand then you and you were last agressor so you show first and he muck worst hand its all.
    • lennert9
      lennert9
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2008 Posts: 278
      I thought that the person who is first to act in the betting rounds has to show first( so SB ->BB->UTG...) and then you can fold if someone has already shown a higher combination. Not the last agressor.
    • tac3znarf
      tac3znarf
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2008 Posts: 257
      I think some poker rooms have the rule that the last agressor shows the hand 1st then clockwise, the callers have the option to muck. I think this is the rule they have in pokerstars.
    • TimothyVdp1
      TimothyVdp1
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.12.2007 Posts: 5,820
      offcourse last aggressor shows, this is general rule but ALL the other times on other sites as well I can see the mucked hands
      crazy
    • riv3rd4ncer
      riv3rd4ncer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 81
      finally... :P
      why give people the option to muck, when they don't muck at all?
      i always thought this creates an unfair advantage against the people who weren't aware of this.

      unfortunate for us to to see that advantage go, but i guess it's no more than fair...
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by riv3rd4ncer
      unfortunate for us to to see that advantage go, but i guess it's no more than fair...
      Eh we pay to see those hands and make notes of it? I mean now we are at the same level on dataminers(observers)...

      And what if you do a coaching on PartyPoker or any other XYZ platform:
      ''Well I won the hand and this dude had got eh.. it aint displayed..''

      Didnt knew Last Aggressor had to show it first, any chance you can give me a link to this ruling ? :)
    • RobbieV
      RobbieV
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.09.2008 Posts: 3,766
      That's a weird change. I can see where it is coming from, but at the same time you can always ask someone what he had at a showdown in the casino as well. It's really impolite and it hardly occurs, but you are allowed to at least ask. Online poker you basically ask, by requesting the hand history... I think it's more or less strange they won't allow you to see mucked cards at a showdown.
    • riv3rd4ncer
      riv3rd4ncer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 81
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Eh we pay to see those hands and make notes of it?
      no we don't...
      we pay for a chance to win the pot. not to see villains mucked cards without him being aware of this...

      and yes, it's f'ed for coachings, but that's not really party's concern, right?
      it's not like they're running a training site.
      in order to be fair to all their players, they need to either not give the option to muck at showdown, or enforce it correctly.
      otherwise they're giving a false impression to the people who also pay, but choose to muck their hands.
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      @riv3rd4ncer - you are not making a difference beetween fold and muck.
      As robbie said, even in live poker it is allowed to see when some1 mucks.It is not in the poker etiquette, but some players do it for the exact same reason - to understand how their opponent plays.
      ========
      You can see the mucked cards in any platform I've been to(and thats almost all proposed by PS+more).Its not normal that party does this.
    • riv3rd4ncer
      riv3rd4ncer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 81
      i think i am making a difference there.
      in live games it's allowed to ask the player what he had. not to check his mucked hands behind his back, right?
      i could be wrong here, but i always thought villain isn't required to reveal his mucked hand if he chooses not to. (and even if he would be required to show, imo it makes no sense for online poker to offer the illusion of being able to muck at showdown then)

      ps: i know most platforms do it this way, (all but pkr and -if i remember correctly- cake) but i don't see how that should influence my views on what's normal/right...
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Well, since anyone who clicks "last hand" can see your mucked cards, its not soo hard to deduct that you can actually see theirs too. Anyone who hasnt realised that, is a fish and doesnt really care what he gives away.
      PS In live games, you ask the dealer, and he has to turn up the mucked cards.
      So its a rule,and certanly an option.
    • riv3rd4ncer
      riv3rd4ncer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.02.2008 Posts: 81
      Originally posted by darkonebg
      PS In live games, you ask the dealer, and he has to turn up the mucked cards.
      So its a rule,and certanly an option.
      ok, i didn't know that. i stand corrected.

      about the people who don't realize the hh features, i think you would be surprised. (how many times have you had some noob telling you his mucked hand, and you replying "i know"?)
      sure, they're fish, but does that mean they have to be tricked?
      when you give someone the option to muck his cards that person expects his cards to be mucked. didn't you expect this the first time you played online too?
      imo when given that option it would be no more than fair to give villain a pop-up or note when i request to see his mucked hands anyway...
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Well , tables would go crazy if you had a pop-up evey time when some1 was watching the HH,as poker softwares are doing this by default every hand.Besides,it is a rule. Would they feel tricked if i beat their two pair on the flop just because turn and river made another pair and I had an overpair, thus counterfitting their hand? Its the same thing, and is in the rules of the game.Most of the players dont know what a poker tracking program is, and would be surprised how much I know about them without even playing a hand vs them myself.I dont find it wrong,as it is allowed.
      And yes, his cards are mucked. But I am within my right to check them if I want to.And I dont care if he knows it or not.
      I realised it the second hand I played online(for play money), as I clicked the last hand button on FTP, because I was not sure how exactly I won.
      PS I never chat on the tables.I am not there to socialize.Im there to win money.
    • TimothyVdp1
      TimothyVdp1
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.12.2007 Posts: 5,820
      crazy:
      Indeed, as my colleague pointed out, in case you choose to muck your hand, your opponents will not be able to see it while at the table.
      Should you require further assistance, please feel free to contact us at VIP@palladiumlounge.com or just give us a call. My colleagues and I will be more than happy to hear from you.

      I think it's nice that they don't see my shitty plays :D
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      Im glad you are looking it that way. But I thought of moving to party, and now I most probably wont.
      I've put 1700 notes on different players in a month. How I am supposed to put more if I cant see what they played a certain way lol.
    • TimothyVdp1
      TimothyVdp1
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.12.2007 Posts: 5,820
      well, if it helps, I've been playing on party for approximately 3,5 months now and it's the first time that happened :D
      100k+ hands ;)
    • darkonebg
      darkonebg
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 17.01.2008 Posts: 9,508
      So the support is actually BSing and you can see the mucked cards normally?
    • TimothyVdp1
      TimothyVdp1
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.12.2007 Posts: 5,820
      Originally posted by darkonebg
      So the support is actually BSing and you can see the mucked cards normally?
      i don't know :(
      probably yes but if it's just that 1 time I don't care :D
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