[NL2-NL10] NL25 c-bet questions

    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      MP2:
      $2.90
      Hero:
      $4.20

      0.1/0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with K:spade: , Q:spade:
      MP2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1.00.

      Flop: ($2.85) 7:diamond: , A:diamond: , J:diamond: (2 players)
      MP2 checks, Hero bets $2.95 (All-In), MP2 calls $1.65 (All-In), Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Turn: ($6.15) 2:spade:
      River: ($6.15) 5:spade: (2 players)


      Final Pot: $6.15

      In this hand, I raised with KQ in BU, and the flop came with me holding a trash hand. C-bet rules vs. 1 opponent call for me to bet 2/3 pot, but as 2/3 of 2.85 is around 1.9, and that is more than half my chips (2.95), I push them all in right away.

      Several questions:

      1) I wanted to confirm that this is the correct play.
      2) I understand the math behind that if I'm betting 2/3 of the pot, I need to be successful 40% of the time to make money. In this situation where I am forced to push all in due to the rules, does my math change? Since I am now betting 2.95 to win 2.85 (and with trash I might often be behind) I have a feeling that this is a mathematically a -ev play, is this correct?
      3) Which lead to my next question, should I have just bet 2/3 of the pot and not all in?
      4) Under SSS, even at a higher level, do I ever have discretion as to whether to c-bet vs. 1 opponent? Can I use his stats, and the board texture to determine whether to cbet? Or do I HAVE to cbet in this situation vs. 1 opponent

      Thanks,

      Will
  • 6 replies
    • Dante63s
      Dante63s
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.01.2009 Posts: 5,523
      If your playing SSS you would not raise with KQs. I would not go All-In with that flop.
    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      Originally posted by Dante63s
      If your playing SSS you would not raise with KQs.
      According to the SSS SHC, KQ is a raise in late position if no raises before me, right?
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      KQs has always been a raise from BU.

      1) I wanted to confirm that this is the correct play.

      Yes it is, nh.

      2) I understand the math behind that if I'm betting 2/3 of the pot, I need to be successful 40% of the time to make money. In this situation where I am forced to push all in due to the rules, does my math change? Since I am now betting 2.95 to win 2.85 (and with trash I might often be behind) I have a feeling that this is a mathematically a -ev play, is this correct?

      You are pushing to maximize fold equity since your stack is almost the size of the pot then it's just better to push it all in. It is true that it has to work more often to be profitable but let's say the flop you cbet 2/3 pot and the guy reraises ( not this guy since he is very short ) then you have to call for your gutshot/overcards or whatever so it's better to just push. remember you are also pushing your aces here

      3) Which lead to my next question, should I have just bet 2/3 of the pot and not all in?

      2/3 also puts him all in

      4) Under SSS, even at a higher level, do I ever have discretion as to whether to c-bet vs. 1 opponent? Can I use his stats, and the board texture to determine whether to cbet? Or do I HAVE to cbet in this situation vs. 1 opponent

      The highest level I've played is nl100 , I don't think you should worry about higher limits at the moment.
      you can use stats and board texture to make your desitions , of course, but to not cbet you need a good sample size , and a very good reason to not cbet , you have to cbet in heads up pots almost 100% of the times



      edit: are you playing SH ? or the table got short?
    • williamtywong
      williamtywong
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 123
      edit: are you playing SH ? or the table got short?
      The table got short. I didn't even notice that before.

      Thanks so much for your thoughtful advice. There were a couple things I wanted to respond to/discuss further though.

      re 3) Yes, you are correct, 2/3 puts him in also, didnt' notice that before. But for argument's and learning sake, what if he was a big stack?

      re 4) Forgive my phrasing, I should have meant at a more "advanced" level (higher understanding) of play, not necessarily higher limit. For instance, in the silver article "continuation bets," it says that high suitedness + high connectivity means bad for c-bet (actually not sure if this is a BSS article, since it doesn't say). Furthermore, the article states that a player must be able to lay down his/her hand if I'm going to cbet. In this case, villian is loose (VP$IP=43), low AF (0.9) and WTS high (28). Would this make him a calling station? At a more advanced level of play, do these two factors change the way that I play this hand?
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      against a big stack, then go by the rules and push ;)

      about cbetting in advanced SSS play : http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/no-limit/1270/
    • IngolPoker
      IngolPoker
      Black
      Joined: 05.09.2006 Posts: 10,473
      the reason to push directly is quite simple...if you bet normally and he raises you have to call anyways because the odds are so good


      it is extremely difficult to find spots where not making a cbet is the better play

      looking for them will do you more harm than good ;)