$Won without SD line - Shorthanded

    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      I've noticed that my won$ w/o sd line for FL .25/.50 SH are a little different.

      25/.50 SH: -6.64BB/100, winrate: 7.24BB/100 over 6626 hands

      .5/1 SH: -8.55BB/100, winrate: 2.29BB/100 over 10176 hands.

      Recent graph at .5/1


      Seems I have a bit of a leak. :evil: Here's the stats for the period in the graph.

      vpip 24.51, pfr 16.49, af 2.18, wtsd 32.26, w$wsf 38.32, w$sd 58.01

      Something must be done, but I'm not sure what. My game has was working good at .25/.50, but obviously I want to keep improving and moving up the limits. Any suggestions? :D
  • 25 replies
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      I have the same graph over last 15k hands. We play FL so you should expect to have non-SD winnings negative...

      The only interesting line is the green one, so focus on that instead of this NL stuff ;)
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      I don't agree with the fact that your non-SD should be negative because you play FL. It's because you play TAG, and LAGs will usually have a positive non-SD line.

      I have the same thing in 6-max though, I can never get my red line up :P In HU it's usually + though, so just depends on how you play.
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      I don't agree with the fact that your non-SD should be negative because you play FL. It's because you play TAG, and LAGs will usually have a positive non-SD line.
      Yes, that's true - thank you for correction :)

      But the most of LAGs won't have positive non-SD on low limits imo, because there're plenty of calling stations and 45%+ WTS guys + TAGs will exploit them soon so marginal calldowns will follow. It's possible, but very rare and he must be very good LAG ofc.


      btw: is it just me or we're not getting "New Reply: xxx" emails from threads created after forums were down?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by opal99
      Originally posted by Yoghi
      I don't agree with the fact that your non-SD should be negative because you play FL. It's because you play TAG, and LAGs will usually have a positive non-SD line.
      Yes, that's true - thank you for correction :)

      But the most of LAGs won't have positive non-SD on low limits imo, because there're plenty of calling stations and 45%+ WTS guys + TAGs will exploit them soon so marginal calldowns will follow. It's possible, but very rare and he must be very good LAG ofc.


      btw: is it just me or we're not getting "New Reply: xxx" emails from threads created after forums were down?
      This. :)

      At SalamiandCheese:

      Your wts is way to low. You seem to fold the best hand too often. Try to archieve at least 36% wts. :)
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      Alright, I'll try to see more showdowns. But how should I do this? I might be dumping my ace high and low pocket pairs a bit early, that's the only thing I can think of at the moment. To correct that, I should try to get to showdowns on the cheap, or keep up the aggression in those spots? For now, I'm just focusing on staying in the hand longer cheaply as long as it's reasonable to do so. There's a vid on my blog now if anyone wants to take a look at that.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Can you post the link? If it's not too long I will have a look at it. :)
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      It's 40min, 40MB's, three tables. The quality is good. I'm slowly improving the production quality with each one. I'll be making another one probably tonight.

      http://www.filefactory.com/file/af6fah0/n/salamisession2_avi
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      Alright, 3rd one is done.

      http://www.filefactory.com/file/af6fcd8/n/salamisession3_avi
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Ok I'm downloading the 3rd. No idea when I find time to watch it but I'll let you know. :)

      EDIT: Wow the sound nice. Where do you come from? Is english your first language? :)
      Well I saw your currency. Canadian nice. :D

      Ok Video 3:

      1:56, BL: I wouldn't fold the flop directly against a donkbet. He can donk a straigh- or flushdraw here as well and you have some outs if he has just a better pair. You can still fold the turn if the cards complete a lot draws.
      This is a nice article about donkbets:
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/58/

      2:26, BL: AJo can be folded here if is isn't openraising as much as a TAG. (Well not really worth mentioning it. :) )

      4:53, UL: The turncall is already close but ok I guess. There are still some draw he could bet with. But the river completes most of them so don't call again.

      5:16, UR: I don't fold this against a donkbet. The turncard made a lot draws possible so I like to calldown to a blank rivercard.

      5:44, BL: I even tend to raise his riverdonkbet. It just makes no sense. J6 or 96? Sure busted draws will fold but I like a raise here against a J or 9 maybe even just a 6.

      6:38, UR: Wow never try to check here. Without a preflopaggressor the chance of a bet is small and a freecard can hurt you a lot. Also if they check around your turnbet is to big to let them call anymore (incorrectly call of course). Just to mention it as you bet it anyway. :)
      I like bet/fold river more on a 4-suited river. Sure the first intention is to check but he will check behind too often with hands he would call and are behind you and will almost always bet the better hand and only some bluffs if at all (sure this guy way crazy but you can't know that before seeing it).
      Did you donkbet the turn? If so then better switch to check/call to not get raised again.

      11:36, BL: You get 22:1 if I see it correctly so you can even draw for your set here without implied odds. Call flop and fold turn unimproved.

      Rest later. :)
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      Alright! Thanks for the comments, very useful. Definitely a little too tight post-flop in that session. :D
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Alright. Part 2. :)

      13:24, BL: No reason to bet too upset here. I think a fold is fine at this limit. Later you can call once as you have two overcards to 2 board cards and on the higher limits they will check/raise often enough with just a bad pair or even as a bluff.

      13:29, UL: You missed a valueraise here with the best fullhouse possible. Only a very unlikely 9 is beating you. You might even raise the turn but I like calling to not get 3-bet by the 9 and to not make the 4 fold.

      15:24, UL: Why not? You probably have the best hand on the turn as a K would have bet here. Even if you are behind against an unlikely K or a better J you still have a lot outs to improve to so that improves the chance to win the hand. Well because of that I probably call the river now.

      17:00, UL: I wouldn't raise this flop. Just go for a calldown here. Turn check behind is fine but I bet the river for value against JT or a worse J.

      24:37, UR: Don't fold the turn. You have a J-high flushdraw and a few outs to twopair if he has a better Q or an overpair.

      31:20, BL: I don't see him raising many worse hands here against your preflopcap so I would only calldown even with an overpair.

      36:50, UR: I wouuld fold the turn. It's capped preflop and still 3-way so you probably don't get the needed 4 outs to call as a flushdraw is out there and you might be behind against an eight sometimes. If BB has AJ you have only 3 outs as well.

      37:16, BL: You missed a valuebet on the river. He won't have a T as he would have 3-bet the flop or raised the turn and the river is the best blank you can get to make him call an eight again.

      40:21, UR: K6o is a pretty bad hand to openraise with. If you want to get looser then do it with more suited connectors than hands that can be easily dominated.

      41:03, BL: You played fish for one hand ehh? ;) Donk flop, donk turn and make him fold. Lol. :D
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      Alright, thanks! I missed or paid out a few extra BB's in there for sure. I'll have to review again to see that things I got right!

      I'm from Canada, btw. First language, Canadian english, eh. :D
    • martizzo
      martizzo
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2007 Posts: 957
      can you give some examples of canadian english ?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by martizzo
      can you give some examples of canadian english ?
      Well for me it was a clear english without a dialect as like english english or scotish english (well I like scotish english a lot). ;)
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Video 2:

      5:12, BL: Either bet/(fold river or check/call for bluff induction. High wts = bet, low wts = check. Bet/call is too much as they don't bluff very often on these limits.

      11:24, BL: I call him down if no draw arrives. http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/fixed-limit/58/

      18:40, UL: Either raise the flop directly or check/raise the turn but don't call flop, donkbet turn. You lose too much value this way. He won't raise too often here and if he would he would even raise after you check/raised the flop.

      19:24, UR: Don't donkbet here. Either check/raise or check/call. I prefer check/raise as he will calldown a lot worse hands if he thinks that you are bluffing at him.

      19:32, BL: T7o is an openraise here.

      20:40, UL: I prefer bet/fold turn for a free showdown morethan check behind.

      22:24, UL: KJs is the lowest hand I would raise here but it plays very well even multiway and you don't have to bet on the flop if you don't hit. As played you should bet the flop. With no preflopaggressor the chance that they take a freecard is too high and you might get more action with a bet than with a check/raise as this looks weaker.
      Wow check/call on a 2-suited flop is nothing I like.

      24:24, BL: I like a call on the river more for overcalls. You often gain the same but you lose less if he has AJ or JJ (I wrote JJ before seeing his hand *g*).

      25:12, BL: More a bad habit in my opinion. Better Check/raise here and make him calldown A-high putting you on a draw. You also can fold pretty easily if he raises the turn or river.

      26:55, BL: Just raisethe flop. If he checks the turn to you you lost a lot money.

      27:30, BL, QJO should be good enough to isolate him.

      29:08, UL: Wow you like donking. ;) I think check/call once for your outs is fine as well as check/fold if he is too tight.

      30:09, UL: Even with the 3rd calling it isn't worth calling here in my opinion. You call for setvalue but you don't hit it often enough here.

      33:36, BL: Try to steal the pot with a bet on the flop. :)

      34:04, UL: Check/raise flop instead of donkbet. :)
      As played 3-bet. You yourself raised donkbets with A-high earlier so I see him doing this often enough as well.

      35:16, BL: J8o doesn't play very well against callingstations. Be rather a bit tighter than looser against them.

      36:52, UR: Check behind river. No worse hand will fold here and you are ahead against a busted straight- or flushdraw anyway which won't call anymore.
      Most of the time you should check behind A- and K-high as the chance of winning with them is too high to risk being bluffraised or being called by a better hand.

      37:04, BL: ATs is strong enough for a 3-bet here. River as played is difficult. I think check/fold is ok here on this ugly board.

      38:22, UR: A pair is pretty strong in a blind battle. Call at least the flop. I like a turnraise a lot for a free showdown.
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      Wow, thanks again ciRith for making another good review of one of my videos. Yeah, I could have chosen a better line in a number of cases, that's for sure! I get away with a lot of mistakes because the players I'm up against are so bad, haha. :D A lot of work to do before I'm ready for $2/4 and up.

      Edit:
      To update where my stats are right now to compare to where they were at at in the first post.

      Vpip: 22.5
      Pfr: 16.4
      AF: 2.16
      W$wsf: 40.0
      WSTD: 35.8
      W$SD: 58.2

      Playing a bit tighter preflop and got my wtsd up somewhat. Won money w/o showdown still sucks though, but other than that things have been running more smoothly the last 3 weeks or so.
    • redskwerl
      redskwerl
      Black
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,802
      edit
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Lol but your non showdown winnings are good I guess. (Mine are negative as SalamiandCheese are. They simply don't fold enough. :/)

      http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7404/aintnolulz.jpg

      Easier to look at it.

      SalamiandCheese well what is your won money w/o showdown?
    • SalamiandCheese
      SalamiandCheese
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2008 Posts: 569
      I was -8.55BB/100 (graph is in the 1st post), now it's actually worse, around -10BB/100 over 10k hands again. Here's the graphs.




      When I can't win showdowns, like now, my downswings are horrible! My stats look better over the last 10k hands though. I think my non-showdown line is giving me worse downswings. But it would be nice if someone else posted their SH $.25/50 - $2/4 non showdown lines.
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