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[NL20-NL50] JJ NL50 SH vs 4-bet

    • VytenisN
      Joined: 03.06.2009 Posts: 151
      I have just 8 hands with this opponent, he is 13/0 over them.
      I am aggressive at the table. Easy fold ?

      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from

      SB ($26.50)
      Hero (BB) ($111.25)
      UTG ($28.70)
      MP ($48.75)
      CO ($57.70)
      Button ($50)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
      3 folds, Button bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5, Button raises to $13, Hero ?
  • 4 replies
    • maya1984
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,741
      Calling a 4bet OOP against unknown will put you on very hard spots postflop.
      There are two options:

      (1) He 4bet for value with a premium hand (Let's say a premium hand is one of the four {AK,QQ+}
      (2) He is using the fact that you don't know each other and 4bet bluff.

      From here you have three options: Fold,Call or Shove


      This is by far our worst option. It all begins in the fact that you have no idea where you at any flop (unless you flop a set)

      (1) Villain has a premium hand
      - a non face board, QQ+ are still in front. AK will either won't put any more money in the pot or try to represent an OP and bluff you out of the pot.
      - Queen,King or and Ace comes on the flop, you have only middle (or even bottom) pair and behind QQ+ and AK.

      (2) Villain has garbage.
      You are in a guessing game, villain can bluff you out of the pot in both scenarios.

      So when you call you have play OOP in a big pot when you have to put more money in a big pot to find if you hand is any good. Either way you are stuck in a crapy spot.

      We took a call out of the equation. We are left with two options: Fold or Shove.


      (1) Villain has a premium hand
      Fold: You get away form being dominated against this range.
      Shove: In the best case you get him to fold AK,QQ, In the worst case you get called and flipping against AK and dominated by QQ+.

      (2) Villain has garbage.
      Shove: You make him fold a worser hand
      Fold: You fold the best hand.

      So it's a big dilemma as you see. I call it the "The 4bet by unknown dilemma"
      Fold is + in (1) and - in (2)
      Shove is - in (1) and ~ in (2) since you made him fold a hand that you had dominated.

      As I see it with out any experience in those spots, with out any reads on the villain and with only 10BB invested in the pot a fold is the best option for you.

      You should use this hand further in the session to understand what's going on in villain head. This hand will help unpuzzling the next hands. (I also think that you can understand what was going on in this hand using the next hands when you will have some reads on the villain)
      When you'll find yourself in the same situation in the future use this hand to make better decisions.

      I hope this helped.

      btw what was your decision?
    • Jaissica
      Joined: 10.02.2009 Posts: 1,385
      4bet bluffs arnt common. Otherwise an average standard 4bet range is AKo+ QQ+ and you only have 34% equity against that.

      Like Maya said, you cant call. You can shove over. Effective stacks are $50, You have to bet $45 into a $100.75 pot, so you are losing an average of $10.75 ish against the standard 4bet range.

      If its a 4bet-bluff (from a hand JJ smashes, 2 undercards or an underpair) and the villain calls your shove you will win about 80% of the time, meaning +EV of +$35.75 each time this happens. However this will probably never happen, unless the villain has say TT and is a bit of a maniac.

      More likely if its a 4bet bluff the villain will fold, meaning 100% of the time its a bluff you win $18.75.

      So (on average), when the villain isnt bluffing we lose $10.75. When the villain is bluffing we win $18.75. For this to balance out, we need the villain to be bluffing a lazy 37% of the time.

      No way can you assume an unknown is going to 4bet-bluff 37% of the time :) You need a solid maniac read to make the shove.

      Easy fold. At least, according to my (always vulnerable to silly mistakes) math.
    • caltabiano
      Joined: 09.03.2007 Posts: 1,992
      Vs unknown, it's best to just fold. Not everybody is capable of 4bet bluff. Most people aren't actually.
      With some history you can likely get it in though.
    • Kaitz20
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      FTP is too aggressive to fold there JJ pf.
      I´d shove and expect to get called by TT+/AK(AQ)